Defective Acros or bad rodinal?

markrewald · Jul 26, 2010

of late I am very frustrated with Acros. My bread and butter film. Today I did 2 rolls of 120 and on some of the frames at the edges are these large blotches. Like the emulsion melted. It is not consistently on every frame. Just on 2 frames on one roll and 1 frame on another. They were done in different tanks.

Both rolls where developed using stand development. 1+100 for 1hr. I have used this technique flawlessly over the past years, so I am wondering if it is my bottle of rodinal that is almost gone.

Other problems I have had is peppering of black spots across an entire roll of Acros 35mm. I read that it might be fix contaminated so I am now filtering the fix prior to putting it back in my bottle.

Also today I developed a roll of expired Tmax100 (expired by almost 10 years) and it is perfect. Well perfect in the sense it doesn't have the issues discussed above with Acros. Granted I cooked it in D-76 not rodinal.

Any ides what would cause this sort of melting issue?

Thanks!

fiducio · Jul 26, 2010

Can you post an example photo? I have never heard of anything like this and I shoot 2-3 rolls of acros a week souped in Rodinal 1+100.

Ian Grant · Jul 26, 2010

markrewald said:
of late I am very frustrated with Acros. My bread and butter film. Today I did 2 rolls of 120 and on some of the frames at the edges are these large blotches. Like the emulsion melted. It is not consistently on every frame. Just on 2 frames on one roll and 1 frame on another. They were done in different tanks.

Both rolls where developed using stand development. 1+100 for 1hr. I have used this technique flawlessly over the past years, so I am wondering if it is my bottle of rodinal that is almost gone.

Other problems I have had is peppering of black spots across an entire roll of Acros 35mm. I read that it might be fix contaminated so I am now filtering the fix prior to putting it back in my bottle.

Also today I developed a roll of expired Tmax100 (expired by almost 10 years) and it is perfect. Well perfect in the sense it doesn't have the issues discussed above with Acros. Granted I cooked it in D-76 not rodinal.

Any ides what would cause this sort of melting issue?

Thanks!

There are other reports of Acros being a very soft emulsion and high pH developers like Rodinal seem to cause more problems.

How tight is your temperature control, it needs to be 20° C +/1 1° C across the whole process Dev, Stop, Fix, Wash, other people report reticulation wth this film in Rodinal, the next stage is emulsion frilling from the edges, which is what you're reporting, and the bit's that lift off often end up as black spots elsewhere on the films.

Ian

Sirius Glass · Jul 26, 2010

Sound like it could be that the 120 film was not on the reels correctly that the emulsion was touching the backing of the previous wind on the reel.

Steve

markrewald · Jul 27, 2010

Ian: I will be honest and say that the temp for Rodinal was +/- 1 degree but... (and now I am embarresed) the temps for Stop, Fix and the PermaWash where not. I will fix that the next time I am developing. Shame on me!

Steve: I did have an issue getting one of the rolls on the reel but the other roll when on the reel with no problems. But again it is something I will look into. Maybe it is time to replace the grudgy looking rells?

fiducio: I ahve had very luck scanning negatives that include the border area. I will give it a try but I think Ian has it peged. Bad process control...

Thanks Guys!

ZorkiKat · Jul 29, 2010

I find the Fuji Neopan emulsions to be softer and more prone to temperatures. Add to that high alkaline developers and the swelling or melting gets serious. That's why we use a Hardening Stop Bath between developer and fixer. The wash water here as well as ambient temperatures average at 28 to 30C all year round.

I've observed reticulation with rodinal/parodinal developed Neopan 400 which had not been given a hardening treatment prior to fixing. AFter this, I decided to used hardening stop baths, and the reticulation problem was relieved. No scientific basis for this? Yes none indeed, but it sure stopped the crazing and cracking.

What's a hardening stop? It's acetic acid with some alum, formulated in the same way as the acid+hardener component in acid hardening fixers.

Mark Fisher · Jul 29, 2010

Strange. I use Acros 120 and Rodinal all the time. I've never experienced any problems with soft emulsions. I've seen it in 35mm Neopan 400, though. I've also seem emulsion seem to fall off with very extended washing. I'd expect to see it on the edges first.

clayne · Jul 29, 2010

Never seen reticulation or other issues with neopans kept at reasonable temperatures. I feel the 1 degree range thing is a myth and total paranoia. Hot temperatures are of course asking for more of an issue. However I *have* experienced the "black dust" effect with acros and rodinal. No reticulation but just a fine layer of specks all across the negative.

Willie Jan · Jul 29, 2010

Be sure that you throw away your rodinal when there are some dropped chemicals at the bottom visible. Some say it lasts forever, probably in a sealed container but not when in contact with air (half a bottle).

BetterSense · Jul 29, 2010

Never seen reticulation or other issues with neopans kept at reasonable temperatures. I feel the 1 degree range thing is a myth and total paranoia.

I'd never seen reticulation AT ALL, with any film, under any temperature abuse, until I ruined several rolls of LegacyPro 400 developed in Rodinal 1:50 without taking extreme care with washing temperatures. Obvious, ugly reticulation was the result. I've shot several rolls of this combination since, making sure to keep temperatures +-2C (a total PITA), and not had any problems, but I would be very cautious with Fuji films and Rodinal. The reticulation is not one of the pleasant photographic surprises.

clayne · Jul 29, 2010

How would rodinal even matter once you're at the washing phase? As long as the temperature deltas are reasonable and not all over the place you'll be fine.

BetterSense · Jul 29, 2010

I will NOT be fine. I have TESTED this. I can go make a roll reticulate right now, with 'reasonable' temperature deltas. I'm not sure if Rodinal has any effect, because I have only used Rodinal with this film.

ZorkiKat · Jul 29, 2010

clayne said:
Never seen reticulation or other issues with neopans kept at reasonable temperatures. I feel the 1 degree range thing is a myth and total paranoia. Hot temperatures are of course asking for more of an issue. However I *have* experienced the "black dust" effect with acros and rodinal. No reticulation but just a fine layer of specks all across the negative.

Until you've experienced how it is to process BW film in the tropics, and letting wet moist film with softened emulsions dry in high humidity, don't dismiss the realities observed and experienced by people who have. Fuji Neopan 400 washed at 26C, can reticulate.

I've seen something similar to the 'black dust' effect on Neopan 400. What appears to be black dust on the positive are actually tiny holes in the negative.

Using wash aids may also contribute to the problem. Wash aids work by swelling the gelatin somewhat to ease the passage of retained chemicals. The typical 10% sodium sulphite solution can soften Neopan emulsions when the wash water is higher than 25C

markrewald · Jul 29, 2010

ZorkiKat said:
Using wash aids may also contribute to the problem. Wash aids work by swelling the gelatin somewhat to ease the passage of retained chemicals. The typical 10% sodium sulphite solution can soften Neopan emulsions when the wash water is higher than 25C

I use Permawash and I have been using it for years. So I am a bit skeptical about that being the cause of my Acros issue. My wash temp is never more then maybe 2 to 3 degrees colder or hotter. Except in the winter then I am constantly fighting with the temp. But again it isnt until the last several rolls of Acros I have used have I noticed this problem.

Maybe it was just a bad one or two rolls that I have finally got too and hopefully past through!!!

Ian Grant · Jul 30, 2010

clayne said:
How would rodinal even matter once you're at the washing phase? As long as the temperature deltas are reasonable and not all over the place you'll be fine.

Because Rodinal has a high pH, and also contains hydroxide, it swells and softens the emulsion more at the development stage, only a hardening fixer (or stop bath) would counteract that softening.

It's no myth that films can suffer actually reticulation or even emulsion frilling & lifting off, or excessive grain through micro reticulation caused by sudden temperature shocks.

What is true is that many modern films are so well hardened traditional reticulation is rarely seen. but in a separate thread last week a number of people admitted getting excessive grain with Tmax400 when they neglected to control the overall process temperatures tightly.

Different developers can make a very significant difference, Pyrocat is a tanning developer so even used at 26° C (my summer dev/fix/wash temperature) Acros is no problem, the developers is hardeneing the emulsion rather than softening.

Ian

bvy · Apr 11, 2016

Could what's described in this thread be (there was a url link here which no longer exists)? Are HC-110 and XTOL considered high pH developers? Do I want to use a hardening fixer (or stop bath as described)? Or add a prehardening step?

Photo Engineer · Apr 11, 2016

HC110 and XTOL are not high pH developers, but HC110 is high in organic chemical and polymer content which can cause problems with soft film.

I think that these two thread have a lot in common and IIRC there are several other similar threads.

PE

bvy · Apr 11, 2016

Photo Engineer said:
HC110 and XTOL are not high pH developers, but HC110 is high in organic chemical and polymer content which can cause problems with soft film.

I think that these two thread have a lot in common and IIRC there are several other similar threads.

It is interesting. Given the choice, would you suggest a prehardening bath, or a hardening fixer?

I saw it in passing somewhere and just checked for myself -- the Acros data sheet specifically calls for a hardening fixer. They list three of their own (impossible to find) but all three are hardening fixers. Perhaps this isn't news to Fuji.

Photo Engineer · Apr 11, 2016

Use both but test first.

bvy · Apr 12, 2016

Photo Engineer said:
Use both but test first.

Thanks. Is there an off-the-shelf pre-hardener (or equivalent), or will I be making this from scratch?

I see Edwal makes an "anti-scratch" product which can be added to fixer. Sounds like it's basically a hardener.

Photo Engineer · Apr 12, 2016

A true prehardener goes before the development step and needs a wash afterwards.

Use 10% chrome alum or use any one of the prehardener formulas posted here and elsewhere. Warning - most of them use formaldehyde.

PE

ColColt · Apr 12, 2016

Photo Engineer said:
A true prehardener goes before the development step and needs a wash afterwards.

Use 10% chrome alum or use any one of the prehardener formulas posted here and elsewhere. Warning - most of them use formaldehyde.

PE

That is some strong stuff!! On par, if not worse, than Glacial Acidic Acid.

Photo Engineer · Apr 12, 2016

Not quite. I can stand some formalin on my hand for about 1 minute, but GAA is good for only about 5 seconds and NaOH and H2SO4 get a reaction from in almost instantly.

PE

bvy · Apr 12, 2016

Maybe I'll start with just a hardening fixer, better temperature control, and more gentle agitation for the stop and rinse.

Photo Engineer · Apr 12, 2016

Or, better film.

Defective Acros or bad rodinal?

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