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Deep Blacks w/ VC Paper

Roger Pellegrini

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Dec 12, 2006
Messages
93
Location
New York
Format
35mm RF
Years ago I gave up using Poly Contrast in favor Agfa's graded papers and then forgot why. I just remembered why.

I recently went back to using Oriental Seagull VC FBII and see that I cannot get the same deep blacks that I can get with Kentmere or Slavich graded paper.

Does anyone have a suggestion for a deep black VC paper, or am I asking to much. Toning with selenium doesn't help much. I am going to try gold toning.
 
It seems to me that RC papers have deeper blacks than FB paper, in general. I suppose eyes are different.
 
Double the paper's development time, to like 6 minutes. That should really get the blacks saturated in the paper. It's something you can't do with RC papers: soak the blacks in...
 
I get deep blacks with Kentmere VC FB, and the Oriental VC FB (although I prefer the look of Kentmere). Both in LPD. Compared to my Slavich Unibrom with the sae neg, the Kentmere looks pretty close, but I also printed it at a much higher contrast.
 
my favorite FB papers are ZoneVI Brilliant III and Oriental Seagull VC and the measured DMax's I seem to get with LPD and recently Ansco 130 seem to as good as it get. Maybe developers....?
 
thebdt said:
Double the paper's development time, to like 6 minutes. That should really get the blacks saturated in the paper. It's something you can't do with RC papers: soak the blacks in...
Click to expand...

I do 3-4 minutes in LPD (1:1, but replenished with full strength, so it's somewhere in the middle) with all the papers mentioned. On the Slavich, I actually get fogging...I think that's the reason.
 
Four minutes in Kentmere Fineprint FBVC using Ilford Multigrade at room temperature with fairly contrasty 8x10 or 7x17 Ilford or T Max negatives.

John Powers
 

To determine how dark of a black we are talking about, you either need a densitometer of a reflective step tablet, such as the ones from Stouffer (http://www.stouffer.net/Reflection.htm). Otherwise, we are just guessing around. Untoned papers reach a maximum density (Dmax) of around 2.1. Selenium toning raises this value to about 2.2. Also, the smoothness of paper surface makes a big difference. The more gloss a surface has, the more specular reflections it has and the darker the blacks (high reflection density). Mat surfaces have a lot of diffuse reflections and lower densities (down to 1.6 or less).
 
Roger Pellegrini said:
Does anyone have a suggestion for a deep black VC paper, or am I asking to much. Toning with selenium doesn't help much. I am going to try gold toning.
Click to expand...

Get some Ilford MG Warmtone (RC or FB), both have very deep blacks, better than standard MGIV.
 
Marco B said:
Get some Ilford MG Warmtone (RC or FB), both have very deep blacks, better than standard MGIV.
Click to expand...

Indeed, Ilford Warmtone reaches a Dmax of 2.3, whereas MGIV is limited to 2.1 with normal processing, but I don't think it will help you much. The eyes are not very sensitive to densities above 1.9, and shadow detail gets lost in overly high Dmax values. A paper Dmax above 2.1 only helps the paper advertising campagne.
 
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Well, maybe it is my hawkeye vision , but I do think the extra depth in the blacks makes a significant difference. Some photos only really shine with such deep blacks.

It was also why I loved Agfa MCC so much, also very deep black.
 
Marco B said:
Well, maybe it is my hawkeye vision , but I do think the extra depth in the blacks makes a significant difference. Some photos only really shine with such deep blacks.

It was also why I loved Agfa MCC so much, also very deep black.
Click to expand...

Agfa MCC also has a Dmax of 2.3, and you may have very good eyes to appreciate the difference, but image brilliance is about local and global contrast and not so much about Dmax.
 
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Thanks.

Thanks. I will try all the above.
Roger
 
Thanks. I will try all the above.
Roger
 
Try Oriental VC if it is still around.

I have no problems with Ilford FB glossy dried matt. Use D72 or Dektol. Ilford`s cold tone developer gives warmer blacks. Ilford FB is better than PolyContrast, but that was a long time ago.

They get to the same density of black, but do not have the same slightly cold tone older papers had.

I would suggest the problem of VC paper is less highlight separation than graded papers. There is no work around for that.

The other problem is there is no shelf like to todays papers. Fog appears around three years from date of manufacture. Cold storage does not help. So get it from a volumn dealer and use it up. I buy only large sheets and cut to size.
 
RalphLambrecht said:
Agfa MCC also has a Dmax of 2.3, and you may have very good eyes to appreciate the difference, but image brilliance is about local and global contrast and not so much about Dmax.
Click to expand...

I basically agree with you Robert Still, quite a few of my prints on Agfa that I most love, have both the wonderful local and global contrast, and the lovely deep velvety blacks... They really shine when framed behind museum glass.
 
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