Deciding on medium format ...

rayonline_nz · Feb 9, 2014

Hi all - I have thought about this for quite some yrs now. I do mainly landscapes and cityscapes so I am using my Nikon F100 and FM2 on a tripod mostly, don't shoot a lot, so I think 120 suits me, per the roll cheaper, process is the same, less frames per roll and that is fine for the more real estate. I want a WLF style than the eye level style of say Pentax 67 etc. Not that heavy so P67 and RB67 are out. Preferably larger than 645. For my casual stuff that is just digital as people want these days ..

I went to Keh.com and started number crunching. Hasselblads cost more. Bronica's like the SQ are cheaper and they are rated in better condition.

A. Maybe Bronica is worthwhile then I know it needs a battery to operate right? Shouldn't be that much an issue.
B. How are the brands of lenses like?
C. I know that the cheaper lenses with Hasselblads are the C T* is that quite a bit older than the Bronica lenses? So a Bronica lens is cheaper, more modern and in better condition?
D. Do you find that with a 6x6 format you are unable to do sweeping views of city vistas of its square format? Say if this was the Yarra River in Melbourne or rooftop deck of Singapore or Bangkok or Tokyo or Paris. You have their tower lighted up at night and you compose your cityscape shot ... I have been tempted with 6x7 but they might be too large physically and I prefer not to use a rangefinder, they also more expensive.

Using the 40mm lens Hasselblad, not checked the Bronica yet - Cokin P filters are too small right? Do you guys find a 50mm ok for landcapes - at times I like to pop on a graduated filter and a solid ND filter.

Cheers...

PhotoJim · Feb 9, 2014

I use a Bronica SQ-A for most of my medium-format shooting, precisely because it was less expensive but the lenses are nearly as good as the Hasselblad glass. I find the square format suits me fine and you can always crop if you want rectangular images. The Bronica does need a battery but it lasts quite a long time (the shutters are electronic so are very accurate but do use battery power). I think the shutter will fire at 1/500 without battery power but research that to be sure, if you care.

Of course you do get fewer images on a roll but you will tend to work more slowly. 120 film isn't expensive but to work as you would on 35mm, you will spend more due to the greater number of rolls required. Still, the cost is not exhorbitant.

I think you will enjoy medium format photography... and if you do, large format won't be far behind!

mooseontheloose · Feb 9, 2014

I've had a Bronica (SQA and SQAi) for about 7 years now and I think I've only replaced the battery once in each body. So battery-wise they are pretty good. I've been using the Bronica for travel photography for years, and I guess the only limitation is how far back you can get to take a photo of whatever cityscape you need. If you want sweeping views, just crop the image for what you want to achieve.

fretlessdavis · Feb 9, 2014

Why not 645? If you print to standard paper sizes, you'd end up cropping 6x6 to *slightly* larger than a 645 format. Still compact enough to rotate into landscape on a tripod without much issue, but then again, you have to turn it.

I really like my ETRS as an all around system and replacement for 35, and have been eyeing a GS-1. A couple notes on Bronica, though:

If you're shooting with E-6, it's better to opt for the newer glass (PS vs S, PE vs MC, etc). Not positive on the SQ, but the ETRS has click stops on full aperture settings only, and will meter to full stops, making any of the prism meters not very useful. The newer lenses will meter to half stops. Of course, that's a moot point if you're using a WLF.

Also, on lenses-- I've had quite a few issues with shutters not firing, not cocking, only firing at max speed, and only firing intermittently. They're shutters don't seem to be super reliable. However, lenses are cheap. You could pretty much have 2 copies of each FL you use and still come in less than a Hasselblad. Just keep the batteries fresh in the Bronica and keep your eye on the feedback that the shutter fired properly. I had a 75mm give up pretty much without warning.

Another quirk-- no bulb mode on The SQ-- the T mode is kind of a pain to use, too. It's one thing that still frustrates me about Bronica.

It may be just my eye, but the lenses seem to be cooler than the Pentax glass. It seems like all my Takumar lenses give wonderful yellows and reds, where my Zenzanons give a more neutral look.

Sharpness will be very close from Bronica to Hasselblad at smaller apertures and moderate prints. I'm still amazed by Hasselblad sharpness, but I think grain would start bugging me more than the difference in contrast.

50mm on a 645 feels about like a 28 on 35mm-- it'll be slightly wider on 6x6. Large Format and rangefinder based optics always look nicer with very wide angles to me-- they're of simpler design and have inherently less distortion. Cokin won't work on the 40mm SQ lens.

Sirius Glass · Feb 9, 2014

rayonline_nz said:
C. I know that the cheaper lenses with Hasselblads are the C T* is that quite a bit older than the Bronica lenses? So a Bronica lens is cheaper, more modern and in better condition?

Not worth the money saved. Almost all CT lenses use B-60 filters so that one set of filters works for all of them. CT lenses are more ergonomically designed. In the past it was hard to find replacement springs for the C T* lenses; in the future there will be even more parts shortages. Buying the CT lenses will require that you have to wait a little long to save the money to buy the next lens, but the wait is worth it.

fretlessdavis · Feb 9, 2014

Sirius Glass said:
Not worth the money saved. Almost all CT lenses use B-60 filters so that one set of filters works for all of them. CT lenses are more ergonomically designed. In the past it was hard to find replacement springs for the C T* lenses; in the future there will be even more parts shortages. Buying the CT lenses will require that you have to wait a little long to save the money to buy the next lens, but the wait is worth it.

Almost all the SQ lenses take the same 67mm threaded filters-- except for the longest and shortest. I think most professional camera systems keep filter size the same, not just Hasselblad.

Edit: I think he also mentioned that he has Cokin P filters, and the B60 Cokin adapters are more than twice as pricey as standard threaded ones.

Poisson Du Jour · Feb 9, 2014

I think fitting a sweeping landscape into the 6x6 format is drawing a long bow, but Oleg Novikov has mastered this in his imaging of China and Russia. The key is having very strong foreground lead-ins and an ultrawide angle lens (he uses the Hasselblad system and is analogue). My imagination tells me that if you photographed the Yarra skyline from Princess Bridge in Melbourne at night you would come away with a cracker, so long as you had a lens with sufficient coverage of the buildings above and the Yarra below. It has been done.

Maybe resist the temptation to hobble the imaging quality of a Hassy lens by using more than one filter at a time.

Kyon Thinh · Feb 9, 2014

I just got a S2A with three lens (50 3.5, 75 2.8 and 200 4) for a peanut, it is build like a tank and feel great in my hand too. I also got a Hassy 500CM but didn't like it so I sold it.
Compare to SQ A which I also have, S2A is heavier, so if you like leaf shutter and light, SQ-A or Ai maybe a choice.

DWThomas · Feb 9, 2014

fretlessdavis said:
Almost all the SQ lenses take the same 67mm threaded filters-- except for the longest and shortest. I think most professional camera systems keep filter size the same, not just Hasselblad.

Edit: I think he also mentioned that he has Cokin P filters, and the B60 Cokin adapters are more than twice as pricey as standard threaded ones.

The same size filter bit is true with the 'S' series lenses, less true with the PS series. The latter series has half stop clicks on aperture and is supposed to be a better coating (and some say a better, computer designed lens), they will also typically be newer. I have an SQ-A with 50 mm, 65 mm, 80 mm, 110mm 1:1 macro, and 150 mm PS series lenses and I'm having a lot of fun with it all.

The shutters are actually mechanical, but electrically timed. So the SQ and SQ-A will fire at 1/500 (maximum) shutter speed without a battery (perhaps not all that terribly useful). Batteries last so long I can't remember when I last changed one. I have heard some metered finders are battery hogs, but I don't own any, using a separate meter with mine.

As to the comment up thread about cropping the square to fit the paper; NO! I crop the paper. I print about 10.5 inches square on 11x14 paper and use the offcut for test strips. I generally print the whole square.

Sirius Glass · Feb 9, 2014

DWThomas said:
As to the comment up thread about cropping the square to fit the paper; NO! I crop the paper. I print about 10.5 inches square on 11x14 paper and use the offcut for test strips. I generally print the whole square.

Cropping the print to fit the paper without an photographic reason for the cropping is just wrong and wrong headed. DWT got it right.

Dave Swinnard · Feb 9, 2014

LIke yourself I shoot mostly landscapes and cityscapes (on a tripod). Over the years I've used the Pentax 67, Bronica S2A (4 1/2 turns to advance film IIRC), SQ, GS ETRS, and the Hasselblad 500 series as SLRs, as well as a number of TLRs. Each was fine and provided images I was happy with. Over the years these various systems came and went for a number of reasons. After being away from medium format for a number of years (for 4x5) I came back to the format(s) with a used Hasselblad 500CM and 6x6 and 6x4.5 backs. The choice was basically made on the basis of timing. I had a Sinar 4x5 I was not longer using and met a fellow who wanted one and had a selection of Hasselblad bodies he didn't want. Simple trade.

I had been contemplating another Bronica SQ or GS but the Hasselblad opportunity came up first.

I guess what I'm saying is you're likely to be satisfied with any of the options - once you've made the format choice. I like the square format and crop if I need to (not usually needed as I tend to fill the frame of whatever format I'm shooting - why waste the real estate).

cjbecker · Feb 9, 2014

I've shot or owned most of the popular medium format cameras and my choice was the hasselblad. It is a camera that you can really do anything with. I can go from shooting sports to portraits to landscapes, all in the same day. Just put on whatever accessory you need and go. Lenses are top notch as expected. But the thing I like about it most is the thought put into designing a camera that is sleek and fast to use. No random knobs or dials sticking out from the body to get caught on stuff.

PKM-25 · Feb 9, 2014

There is a reason why Hasselblad was the choice of many top pros and even space programs...

It's not because it is a fashion accessory or a name you want your ego associated with, it is because it is both the "Ford Truck" and "Ferrari" of medium format. I am seeing amazing lenses like the 50 FLE, 60CF, 100CF & 180CF all go for ludicrous prices, $400-$700...how anyone could say the Hassy V system is expensive at this point is beyond me....

JW PHOTO · Feb 9, 2014

I like my 6x6 Hasselblad and Rollei cameras and the optics are first rate. I also like my Pentax 67 outfit and it's lens line is also first rate. I'm not a fan of 645's, but that's just me. I sold a very nice M645j-1000 with AE prism and three lenses that was just as easy to use as my old Nikon FE2. The Mamiya camera system was great, but the 645 negatives just weren't that much bigger that my 35mm one for me anyway. I also know that 6x6 film to enlargement ratio is going to waste a little film if I crop to 8x10 proportions. That leaves the 6x7 format, which I find ideal, but slightly more bulky with the Pentax 67. Now, if I had no medium format camera at all and were looking to jump into the ring? My money would go on a Bronica GS-1 with grip and 90 degree prism. Simple as that. I don't own any Bronica gear anymore, but my first real wedding camera was a Bronica S2A and I loved that camera. A little noisy, but it never let me down image wise or mechanically. I could also get by very easily with a Mamiya7, but now your talking some bigger bucks out of the old shoe box. So, for the money I'd vote for a big 6x7 negative and the Bronica GS-1 will give it to you. Just my thoughts anyway. JohnW

dorff · Feb 10, 2014

One learns to see and compose with the frame format of your camera. I never take the 6x7 with the intention to make 3:2 prints. Because my enlarger only covers 6x6, I have often printed square from 6x7, and that works for me under the circumstances. However, I would ideally choose my format and system first, then enlarger, and then after all of that worry about paper (if at all). The system I currently use most is 645 (Mamiya). I also have a very good Pentax 6x7 system, but it is larger, heavier, and more demanding in terms of tripod usage etc. So it takes a much more measured approach, although it rewards with wonderful quality when handled correctly.

If you have decided square is the way to go, then apart from the Hasselbald and Bronica systems, one can also consider a TLR. The Mamiya and Rolleiflex TLRs are excellent tools, and have the advantage that one may fit filters over the taking lens without dimming the viewing lens. Just maybe something to briefly consider.

Always, as far as you can, go out and use the equipment you intend to invest in before taking the plunge. Some systems seem nice on paper, but in practical application they might not serve you the way you thought they might. My Mamiya AFD is a case in point. I spent a fair amount on getting the system fully fleshed out, and once I started using the Pro TL, I have barely touched the AFD. Others might strongly disagree with me here, but this is my view: There are virtually no bad medium format lenses. Put differently, every system has a few lenses that are truly excellent, and the rest are almost certainly good enough. This means that your choice has more to do with issues other than the quality of the glass, and for that reason you should get your hands on before deciding, rather than look at flickr pages and drool over whatever someone else has done. Disclaimer: I haven't sampled all the systems, but I have Mamiya RZ67, Pentax 67, Mamiya 645 AF and MF systems, as well as Mamiya C330 and C220 TLRs. A different approach is to buy the system based on one particular lens that the other systems do not possess. An example would be the Zeiss 100 f/2. But be aware that there are for instance Mamiya 80/1.9 (645) or Pentax 105/2.4 (67) lenses that also have their own charm in a similar slot. Good luck deciding - every system has its followers.

rayonline_nz · Feb 10, 2014

It's a continued journey.

It's not so much the cost in that way. Yes maybe a Hassie lens is less than a fancy Nikon/Canon lens but a Bronica ETRS kit with the 80mm could be picked up for less than $200. Not much more the SQ and Mamiya's. That's money I can spend on airfares getting to places to do my photography. I'm just an hobbyist, do I need that Hassie. I do mainly travel and landscapes / cityscpaes so like my Nikons like the 2 digitals that was bought new the exterior probably get scruffed up anyway. I might use them in a light drizzle or even on a raining day and try for a quick shot. How can one avoid if one is travelling to a place when they may not return for some yrs later if ever. With my Nikons I tended to get used lenses which for me tripod work I am fortunate not to need the newer technologies.

Got me thinking. Maybe 645 suits me more. I tend to use wide angle sweeping rectangle views more. Lake reflections, twilight skies etc. I think thou if I can live with a different viewfinder the Mamiya 7 would be ideal but it comes at a cost. Similarly the Fuji 6x9 with the 60mm lens is tempting.

The Bronica GS-1 is probably out of my comfort zone. I use it outside when I am travelling without a car, ie - public transportation overseas when I won't return to my room until 9pm. A photography buddy has a GS-1 which I had a look at. saw the ETRS in a store and someone's Hassie when he did a presentation amongst others with their b/w work. When I thought about medium format some yrs ago it was the rectangle 6x7 but they're on the large heavier side.

hsandler · Feb 10, 2014

I think the aspect ratio you tend to prefer for your subjects is the most important factor. If you don't tend to shoot squares, then a 645 camera will be just a little more compact and less expensive, in general, and gives the same rectangular negative area. Another big consideration is what you do with the negatives. If you scan on a flatbed, a bigger 6x7 negative for rectangulars helps a lot. If you enlarge, consider if your enlarger can take 6x7 negatives.

I have the Bronica ETRS system, and I prefer the waist level finder for composing, but it's very impractical to compose verticals, so I carry the prism finder and speed grip in my bag too. For that reason, one might want to go for the SQ series just to be able to use a waist level finder all the time. It depends if you are willing and able to mentally, or with cardboard masks, mask out the parts of the image you will end up cropping for rectangular photos.

The battery issue for the modern Bronicas is really a non-issue, even a plus in my mind. Electrically-timed shutters stay accurate. The silver-oxide batteries are readily available and last forever (the exception is when using some of the metering prisms if you forget to turn off the meter). If you go for the ETRS series, I would recommend the ETRSi, as it has the important mirror lockup function that I use a lot. Similarly, for the SQ series, the SQ-A or SQ-Ai have mirror lockup, and the SQ-Ai has a B setting for the shutter.

rayonline_nz · Feb 10, 2014

I have just gone thru the manual with the ETRS. How does the ETRSI work in T mode with a cable release? There is no bulb mode. Would be using it on a tripod at low light you see ... Or does the Mamiya 645 Super have bulb and a cable release? Do they both have mirror lock up? I know the ERTSI has it ...

RalphLambrecht · Feb 10, 2014

I just recently got a 40mm for my Blad, because it took me >10 years to run into a decent deal. the 50mm FLEworked just fine before that. Go with Hasselblad if you can afford it. It's a perfect camera system for a variety of photographic genre and i'd be surprised if you'd be disappointed.I love mine to bits It'sromance.

spijker · Feb 10, 2014

If you decide to go the Mamiya 645 route, I'd suggest to get a 645 Pro or 645 Pro TL. They supposedly have better film advance gearing than the Super. The Pro & Pro TL both have bulb, mirror lock-up but no mechanical cable release, only electrical. You need to get a small adapter to use a mechanical cable release. These are often part of the package if you buy a camera outfit.

More info here

I have the 645 Pro and this camera & film format works for me. I find it a good balance of image quality, size, weight, cost and features.

hsandler · Feb 10, 2014

rayonline_nz said:
I have just gone thru the manual with the ETRS. How does the ETRSI work in T mode with a cable release? There is no bulb mode. Would be using it on a tripod at low light you see ... Or does the Mamiya 645 Super have bulb and a cable release? Do they both have mirror lock up? I know the ERTSI has it ...

Actually, the ETRSi does have bulb. Not sure if the ETRS and ETR do though. In the SQ line, only the SQ-Ai has bulb. They all have T mode. With a cable release, after cocking the shutter and body by winding, you unscrew the stop on the lens, and slide the switch from A to T. Then you open the shutter by pressing the cable release or shutter release. You can then let go of the cable release or shutter release and the shutter will stay open. To end the exposure, you slide the switch on the lens back to the A position. The general practice is to cover the lens with a hat or such before jigging the camera to slide the switch back to the A position if there are light sources that might look blurred in the photo. Since one generally would only be using T mode for long exposures more than 8 s or so, it's not much of an issue.

rayonline_nz · Feb 10, 2014

hsandler said:
Actually, the ETRSi does have bulb. Not sure if the ETRS and ETR do though. In the SQ line, only the SQ-Ai has bulb. They all have T mode. With a cable release, after cocking the shutter and body by winding, you unscrew the stop on the lens, and slide the switch from A to T. Then you open the shutter by pressing the cable release or shutter release. You can then let go of the cable release or shutter release and the shutter will stay open. To end the exposure, you slide the switch on the lens back to the A position. The general practice is to cover the lens with a hat or such before jigging the camera to slide the switch back to the A position if there are light sources that might look blurred in the photo. Since one generally would only be using T mode for long exposures more than 8 s or so, it's not much of an issue.

Just to clarify the ETRSi has bulb mode? Do I still have to slide the switch to begin? And to end the exposure do I have to slide it back or can I just pop the cable release like on my Nikon FM?

rayonline_nz · Feb 10, 2014

Just another question, sorry. I am doing my spreadsheet up with the Mamiya vs Bronica. For Mamiya what are the more moden lenses - the N series? I know that the Bronica are the PE.

hsandler · Feb 10, 2014

rayonline_nz said:
Just to clarify the ETRSi has bulb mode? Do I still have to slide the switch to begin? And to end the exposure do I have to slide it back or can I just pop the cable release like on my Nikon FM?

Yes, the ETRSi has bulb mode. it's on the shutter speed dial on the body past the 8s setting. When you use that, you don't use the slide switch on the lens. In B mode, the shutter stays open as long as the cable release or shutter release button is held in, and it draws battery power while doing so. The shutter closes again when you release the cable release or shutter button, just like on most SLRs. For really long exposures, like many minutes or hours to do astrophotography, the T mode is still preferable because it doesn't draw battery power, but the B mode on the ETRSi is very handy for things like 20-60s dusk or night photography exposures because you don't have to fiddle with the little switch on the lens, especially when wearing gloves in the winter.

Steve Smith · Feb 10, 2014

DWThomas said:
As to the comment up thread about cropping the square to fit the paper; NO! I crop the paper. I print about 10.5 inches square on 11x14 paper and use the offcut for test strips. I generally print the whole square

Personally, I agree with you.

However, I have a friend who used to be a photographer for The Times. He sometimes used a Hasselblad but knew that the image would inavariably be cropped to a rectangle and he was often sent out with instructions to shoot to a required shape. With this in mind, he considered the Hasselblad to be a rectangular format camera which didn't need to be rotated ninety degrees for vertical framing.

Steve.

Deciding on medium format ...

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