Debating a new MF Camera

sanking · Dec 26, 2009

Ian Grant said:
It's not a thread about D-76 & Xtol but Sandy if you'd tested Tmax in D76 and Xtol in a 35mm camera, with high level lenses then there's an unmistakeable difference in sharpness & resolution between the two.

Ian

Ian,

Well, I was just answering a question, not attempting to hijack the thread.

But, I stand completely by my statement that sharpness is determined more by developer dilution and type of agitation than by the developer itself. As for resolution, I compared D76 and Xtol with a high resolution chrome on glass target several years ago, and the tests took a lot of time and were done to the best of my ability in an effort to be fair and objective. I compared Xtol with D76, and also included PMK and Pyrocat-HD. I also tested four different films, two traditional emulsions films and two T-grain emulsions.

My results showed virtually the same resolution with all four films comparing D76 1:1 and Xtol 1:2. Pyrocat and PMK both gave an increase of about 10-15% in resolution compared to D76 and Xtol.

What was not mentioned earlier is grain with Xtol is finer than with D76 and this may be what makes it appear sharper in 35mm work.

Sandy

Dave Pritchard · Dec 26, 2009

I have a Pentacon Six, a Kiev 6C (okay 6S), and a Salyut-S. They are appropriate for the lightweight arts photography I am doing now. The lenses are nice. Some care is needed with the bodies, to cock the shutter before whatever. Overall, the cost is low, and the images are nice.

Everyone here will tell you that the only cameras worth having are the very best of the best. Well, it depends on your situation. If you are a professional, you would not be asking this question anyway.

If the normal lens set-up on the Yashica is not quite flexible enough, you are looking for lenses. I'd recommend looking first at the lenses you need for your intended uses. The Pentacon Six (and Kiev 60) mount lenses are a good value.

Katier · Dec 26, 2009

Dave Pritchard said:
I have a Pentacon Six, a Kiev 6C (okay 6S), and a Salyut-S. They are appropriate for the lightweight arts photography I am doing now. The lenses are nice. Some care is needed with the bodies, to cock the shutter before whatever. Overall, the cost is low, and the images are nice.

Everyone here will tell you that the only cameras worth having are the very best of the best. Well, it depends on your situation. If you are a professional, you would not be asking this question anyway.

If the normal lens set-up on the Yashica is not quite flexible enough, you are looking for lenses. I'd recommend looking first at the lenses you need for your intended uses. The Pentacon Six (and Kiev 60) mount lenses are a good value.

Yeah that was my thinking, lens wise I must say the famous fisheye appeals but I think overall mainly on the wider side of 80mm for most things I do. Possibly something a little longer should I do any portrait work too.

I think I'll go for the new option, while the Bronica would serve me well getting the lenses could be a lottery ( i.e. waiting for them to be available ).

Arax and Hartblei seem to do a decent job and not as if I'm likely to wear them out.

Guess the next question is do I NEED MLU. While I love the look of the 88 and the interchangeable backs are a nice to have, going for a 60 makes more sense from a reliability point of view.

http://www.araxfoto.com/cameras/arax-60mlu/ £220ish

http://www.hartblei.com/cameras/kiev-60.htm
No MLU - about £120
MLU (no return button) £150
MLU (no return button) £165

All prices approxx

Kits seem to include same stuff ( except for a nice arax bag ) so not sure which to go for.

Tom Kershaw · Dec 26, 2009

Katie,

Bronica kit is generally available. See www.ffordes.co.uk

Tom

mrred · Dec 26, 2009

Katier said:
Guess the next question is do I NEED MLU. While I love the look of the 88 and the interchangeable backs are a nice to have, going for a 60 makes more sense from a reliability point of view.

Well, I bough a kit of a 88CM, 2x 6x6 120 backs, 1 prism, 1 waist viewfinder and an 80mm (pent 6) lens. Great! Then I bought my first "other lens" and realized upon arrival, that it was for the old mount. I looked around the "bay" and picked up an older Kiev 88 box for less than $100. Later I got brave and picked up a 4x5 120 back.

Modular is the way to go, in making your money truly stretch. I now can look for the best lens and have a body to match it. I have found them most reliable and the only issues I have had to date was me. No regrets.

I did borrow a Hassy 500c before I bought the kiev, to help me make up my mind. There were two main factors for me choosing the Kiev. One was a newer production (A hassy of the same generation would cost 4k+). This would impact parts/repair in the future. Getting a hassy of comparable price (1950-1970) would mean parts supply would dwindle sooner. I intend to shoot film for a very long time. The second was the non-standard filter mount. The thought of buying more filters "just because" it was a hassy turns me off.

A friend of mine has a Mamiya MF. It doesn't give him decent photos because he can't shoot. It's your eye that counts.

Katier · Dec 26, 2009

Tom Kershaw said:
Katie,

Bronica kit is generally available. See www.ffordes.co.uk

Tom

Interesting link and they do have second hand stuff. I did of course mean second hand not new .

aldevo · Dec 26, 2009

Katier said:
Well new to me at least..

I LOVE 6x6 and for much of my 6x6 work I'll continue to use my Yashicamat but there are times when the fixed lens isn't ideal and thus a SLR ( or Mamiya ) would be better.. Been researching options and trying to figure out best option..

Based on current ebay.co.uk prices (for second hand kit ) :-
SQA - £300 with 80mm/WLF
Hassy 200FC - £400 with 80mm/wlf
Pentax 67 - £330 (approxx)
Mamiya C330 - £200 (approxx)

I know the Pentax is 6x7 but looked at it as it's close to square. I then looked at the only affordable new options.. Yep you've guessed it the remanufactuered Kievs.

Kiev 60/Arax MLU Standard - £220 (approx) including TTL Finder etc.
Kiev 88/Arax non-MLU Basic - £220 (approx) WLF/80mm/film holder
Kiev 60/Hartblei MLU Standard - £150 (approx) including TTL Finder etc.
Kiev 88/Hartblei non-MLU Basic - £300 (approx) including TTL Finder etc.

My gut instinct is to go for either a Hartblei Kiev 60 or a Arax non-MLU 88. I am assuming both options are a lot more consistant and reliable than the base Kiev models and it is based on this assumption that for the level of use ( quite light weight use overall ) I am going to do these two options represent the best value for money.

Thoughts?

The Hassy seems to be the best of the lot...assuming the FP shutter is, in fact, in good repair.

I have a Bronica SQ-Ai and I have found the optics generally disappointing. I've tried no fewer than 3 different 80mm PS lenses and none of the three was better than the 80mm in my Yashicamat 124g. Two were noticeably worse. My 150mm S lens is going back to KEH because I've got better optics in the $5 plastic telescope I bought at the gift shop at the Boston Museum of Science circa 1980.

Kiev quality control is all over the map. A particularly good sample of any given lens can be excellent.

Katier · Dec 26, 2009

aldevo said:
Kiev quality control is all over the map. A particularly good sample of any given lens can be excellent.

Which is why I was looking at the two re-manufacturers. They seem to basically do the quality control and fix the problems.

Barry06GT · Dec 26, 2009

.
Keep in mind that Kiev has gone the way of Bronica: They went out of business, the Arsenal factory where all of the Kiev cameras were made has been closed, and only cameras already built are available.

Kiev is dead. Arax will soon follow as they do not manufacture anything, only resell a product that is no longer made, and they now cannot get any more product from the closed Arsenal Kiev factory.
.

Venchka · Dec 26, 2009

Pentax 6x7. Fabulous lenses dirt cheap. Keep shopping. Do used cameras really sell for that much money in the UK?

RalphLambrecht · Dec 27, 2009

Katier said:
Interesting link and they do have second hand stuff. I did of course mean second hand not new .

ffordes is a good source. I bought there before and never was disappointed.

Katier · Dec 27, 2009

Barry06GT said:
Kiev is dead. Arax will soon follow as they do not manufacture anything, only resell a product that is no longer made, and they now cannot get any more product from the closed Arsenal Kiev factory.
.

True although my understanding is Arax managed to secure enough kit for quite some time to come ( at least enough for them to be likely in business for at least the warranty period ). Given their level of expertese and knowledge with quite some time to organise, if their management is any good they have the time to adapt in a new direction.

DVDM · Dec 27, 2009

aldevo said:
The Hassy seems to be the best of the lot...assuming the FP shutter is, in fact, in good repair.

I have a Bronica SQ-Ai and I have found the optics generally disappointing. I've tried no fewer than 3 different 80mm PS lenses and none of the three was better than the 80mm in my Yashicamat 124g. Two were noticeably worse. My 150mm S lens is going back to KEH because I've got better optics in the $5 plastic telescope I bought at the gift shop at the Boston Museum of Science circa 1980.

Kiev quality control is all over the map. A particularly good sample of any given lens can be excellent.

I have Bronica SQ-Ai and all 4 lenses. All of them are great ! Also I bought 3 sets for my friends from Ebay and all cameras and lenses were perfect. I can't even imagine what I need to do in order to get bad photos with my Bronica =) I sold my Hasselblad 500C/M with 80mm CF and 150mm CF week ago and bought Pentax 645N for street shooting.

DVDM · Dec 27, 2009

Barry06GT said:
.
Keep in mind that Kiev has gone the way of Bronica: They went out of business, the Arsenal factory where all of the Kiev cameras were made has been closed, and only cameras already built are available.

Kiev is dead. Arax will soon follow as they do not manufacture anything, only resell a product that is no longer made, and they now cannot get any more product from the closed Arsenal Kiev factory.
.

Just right. BTW I bought Kiev-60 and it had all the problems I could imagine ! Frames overlapping, wrong shutter speed and bad TTL metering. My friend bought ARAX and got frames overlapping too. Also kit lens was not good. I bought Pentacon Six then and made CLA. And it just work =) CZJ optics are amazing !

Forget about Kiev

Trond · Dec 28, 2009

aldevo said:
I have a Bronica SQ-Ai and I have found the optics generally disappointing. I've tried no fewer than 3 different 80mm PS lenses and none of the three was better than the 80mm in my Yashicamat 124g. Two were noticeably worse. My 150mm S lens is going back to KEH because I've got better optics in the $5 plastic telescope I bought at the gift shop at the Boston Museum of Science circa 1980.

Strange. Have you checked the body for misalignments?

Trond

aldevo · Dec 28, 2009

Trond said:
Strange. Have you checked the body for misalignments?

Trond

I have not. However, KEH needed to replace my first two SQ-Ai bodies under warranty and the optical performance of the 80mm PS lenses did not change with the body used.

In any case, the performance of the 80mm PS lenses - while not really satisfactory - was far better than the 150mm S lens. So it does not appear to be a general issue with body alignment.

I don't know if these optics suffered some sort of trauma during their lives (KEH Bronica gear tends to come from professionals - implying heavy use) or if the quality control (both in the Zenza and Tamron regimes) was just that lousy.

Debating a new MF Camera

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