Dearest APUG...I noticed you've been missing something...

It appears to me that the notion of "rules" has been arbitrarily added to the general question of composition. If we look at typical writings on the subject they never advocate strong rules (except corporate style books, heh). When Henry Rankin Poore wrote Pictorial COmposition and the Critical Judgement of Pictures he deliberately left out any idea of enforceable rules. Recognizing patterns of composition that have been repeatedly used successfully is potentially useful. Using them to enforce is obviously brain-dead and authoritarian in a place where authoritarianism serves no purpose other than to keep art classrooms orderly.

Cheryl, placing personal growth in front of artistic growth may be placing the cart before the horse. Art-making is a means to becoming a better and more comprehensive person, not a by-product opf the end result. Saying "become a better person" or a "stronger person" etc -- how to send them up that river? Using art to DRIVE the process of spiritual expansion, rather than to simply trail behind the boat, is preferable.

Way back to the original question -- why is this not formalized on APUG as specific forums? Because these issues don't change in the slightest when addressed by scanners and phonecams. There's no APUG-specific content.

Hi Michel HV,

In fact it's quite fun to talk literature. I speak as a former lit student myself (grad and post-grad) and a former writer, published in the '90's, in literary mags and in one collection of short stories. I gave it up to study photography, always a great love, and have written nothing since (I don't read that much, either, any more ).

I've often tried to analayse why I made this life change, and I've given up. It happened, and that's enough, I don't need to fully understand it.

Making analogies can be interesting and fun, but it can also lead down blind alleys - I know that different sorts of writing, and the pursuit of photography contain similarities but they are also very different, otherwise I wouldn't have made the choices I did.
best wishes
Cate

bjorke said:

Way back to the original question -- why is this not formalized on APUG as specific forums? Because these issues don't change in the slightest when addressed by scanners and phonecams. There's no APUG-specific content.

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Are we, as film users, to limit the scope of our discussion then?
Not just non-digital (which I like) but also non-theoretical?

Cate

I will submit that using film does involve a difference in composition, especially for rangefinder users, because you have to have a better understanding of the difference between what you see and what is recorded. And of course as film size gets larger, there are more decisions to be made about where to focus and how to handle depth of field, which are often moot with the tiny sensors and short, slow lenses on digicams.

Cheryl, placing personal growth in front of artistic growth may be placing the cart before the horse. Art-making is a means to becoming a better and more comprehensive person, not a by-product opf the end result. Saying "become a better person" or a "stronger person" etc -- how to send them up that river? Using art to DRIVE the process of spiritual expansion, rather than to simply trail behind the boat, is preferable.

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You've assumed a hell of a hell in that statement, Bjorke. I didn't say "become a better person" or a "stronger person." I said develop as a person, which is quite a different thing. And I didn't say personal growth came before artistic growth. I simply said that when a person is searching for what they're trying to say in their work, starting with their own personal experiences and values is a logical and valuable place to start. I never said art can't or shouldn't drive the process of "spiritual expansion", nor did I suggest it should trail behind the boat.

The reality is, personal growth and growth as an artist are a cycle. For some the cycle may begin with immersion into their art, and for some it begins with exploring their personality and experience. To say either is preferable is silly.

To clarify, I generally point people in the direction of exploring their values and experiences first because they've generally come to me for a boost in a new direction, or for something they haven't hit upon on their own. Generally they've already been trying things from the artistic/photographic side, and have never thought to explore elsewhere. So what I am doing is to remind them that there is more to photography and art than photograph and art.

And while art-making certainly can be a means to becoming a better and more comprehensive person, it ABSOLUTELY can be the result of becoming a "better" (although I think "deeper" is a better word) person. I've experienced that first-hand.

Cheryl Nicolai said:

You've assumed a hell of a hell in that statement, Bjorke.

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I know that's a typo but I like that expression

Cheryl Nicolai said:

The reality is, personal growth and growth as an artist are a cycle. For some the cycle may begin with immersion into their art, and for some it begins with exploring their personality and experience. To say either is preferable is silly.

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We are entirely in agreement.

The Grand Challenge remains — how to actually help someone to do this — to cross from general principle to actually holding great photographs (yours or a students) in your hand. Which is where all the complications set in, heh.

(Extra note to self: there's probably big money in the 'self-enlightenment and productive motivation through pocket digicams' weekend seminar business. Look out Tony Robbins and Julia Cameron!)

Great thread Ladies and Gents. I appreciate all of your thoughts and comments.

When I started in photography someone once said to me "You must specialise in something rather than doing a bit of everything". Well back then I had no idea what appealed to me, I was happy to photograph most things - and still am in many ways - apart from weddings.

I used to paint a lot - in black and white - and usually portraits, mostly of women, so I guess B&W photography and portraiture was inevitable for me. I don't think I need to "specialise" in anything but maybe he was trying to tell me to find what spoke to me the most. I can't shoot a landscape unless I feel a human element to it. So that was it...

I was inspired by many photographers of all eras but in the end stopped looking at their work to find my own.

These days when I photograph I don't have any plans as to what I want to achieve as I never know in advance what's in front of me until I see it, and that's the way I like it. If I preplan I get disappointed. If I am free of preconceived ideas I can be creative and spontaneous.

Today I went to photograph a young child (non-studio). Mum didn't want to be in any of the photos. After photographing the child for a while, I suggested to Mum to do a couple of portraits as there was a little corner in the home that was perfect for what I could 'see'. I took into account the furniture, background tones, hair, eyes and the beautiful light streaming through the window. She was at first reluctant as she hates having her photo taken (like me), not liking her hair (which was stunning) and always insisted she's unphotogenic. After a chat she agreed and was very uncomfortable but then enjoyed the photography session.

This was unplanned and the portrait I saw through the lens was incredible. I wanted to show this woman that she IS beautiful and in the end she had gained more confidence just from the experience of the photo shoot.

So, I guess, I feel my way through a photography session. It's an emotional journey for me with immense satisfaction.

When photographing people I take my cues from their moods and feelings on the day. It's important for me to be intuitive and at the same time use gentle persuasion and a healthy dose of patience and respect.

Technical know-how is of course important and I've learnt so much through self-study in many books, apug and other photographers. I studied photography formally for a year and a bit until I decided it was stunting my creativity.

Sure I've learned the rules and fundamentals, but unless I can visually feel the image it just doesn't work for me. And if it doesn't work for me, it doesn't see the light of day.

This won't answer all your questions as there are so many factors to take into account that it's impossible for little me to explain in one post.

Kind regards
Nicole

Thanks Nicole.
I think you sumed it up best in your last line. I think that 'we' are all too little to explain what 'it' is. It is a feeling, or a hunch, or something along those lines.
I began this thread thinking that I would have a great set of ideas to go out into the field and try. What I learned from this thread is that I already had those guidelines, rules, and procedures - all I had to do was to close my eyes and imagine them.

Thanks again to everyone.