Dear Ilford (a fanciful dream)

Having just finished a set of 24 prints from a 4 x 3 test matrix that sets a series of (over) exposures against a set of (over) development times of Ilford HP5+ in Rodinal R09*, I am in a fanciful mood and imagined writing an 'I wish...' kind of letter to Ilford.

My imaginary letter to Ilford would go something like this (only it would be more elegantly written, better argued from an artistic and historical point of view and much much more persuasive, in a sound business kind of a sense):

Dear Ilford,

HP5 was the first film I used (as student) and I have recently re-discovered its charm, frequently dropping it into strong R09 solutions and preferring it to all the other films I have tried.

Generally I am looking for a less WYSIWYG look from film, and so, I just bought some out-of-date HP5 Plus in the old black box of the 80s. The black box that makes the film look so much more alluring – mysterious, even. I think that the old black packaging could be re-introduced to make HP5 more appealing.

But then why stop there? Why not bring back, in perhaps limited editions, real HP5 (without the slightly unnecessary 'Plus' or '+'), real HP4 (with its 60s type and sunburst logo) and then the ever-intriguing HP3 in that lovely green and yellow box and tin?





Now, how many people would love to buy a film packaged like that!

Lastly, after Ilford's resounding commercial success with the above series of archeological retro-projects, I'd like to see them get Dufaycolor out of the cupboard and put it back into production. Dufaycolor, the beautiful additive colour film technology they invested in, back in 1935.

Yours, in fevered anticipation,

El Datsun
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*I'm not sure if anyone is interested but I will post the matrix as soon as I can scan them.

I'd just be glad they are selling what they already have...if they really are.

It's a "cute" idea, but it is asking too much of any film manufacturer, given the current state of photographic technology (and the economy in general).

But one can dream.

Mike

I think it's like asking Nissan to make new Datsuns.

Why not dream? That tin looks awesome indeed and I bet the HolgaDianaLomo fans would just LOVE it, too. :wub:

lxdude said:

I think it's like asking Nissan to make new Datsuns.

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Or asking them to deliver them in a different coloured crate...

Having used HP3 albeit ex-Government surplus stock (MOD) in the late 1960's as well as quite a lot of HP4 I'd really prefer Ilford to stick to what they currenty sell.

Like the OP I've come back to HP5, I stopped using it when XP1 was released (I was only using it push processed at concerts), ironically it's now my preferred film shooting in Turkey & Greece where I often have to shoot LF hand held (tripods not permitted) so need the exra film speed.

Ian

Retro-films....or even just a limited release in retro-packaging of current film... sounds a fun idea.

I have a couple of "1920's" replica tins which Agfa sold around the 1990's, each containied four color neg films. These are rather nice (and I've even seen one offered recently on Ebay at a silly price), but I doubt that present levels of film sales could now justify the costs of this kind of marketing.

The thing I'd love to see is Ilford bringing back those great re-usable film cassettes. I miss those...

Paul VanAudenhove said:

The thing I'd love to see is Ilford bringing back those great re-usable film cassettes. I miss those...

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Lucky SHD 100 is in re-useable canisters, jab a pen is scissors into the bottomand the top pops off cleanly

Sounds like a nice idea, I'd buy some. It's not for me to say whether it's a sound investment for Ilford, but I think Lomography, Impossible Project and a couple other show there is some interest in the more retro stuff.

The real point of my post was a little obscured by the packaging angle – I'd really like to be able to investigate some of the old emulsions, their visual qualities and their potential photographic poetry.


I can't say that this is a commercially sound idea. I know that other industries can make short runs of products using just-in-time manufacturing but whether it could ever be used for film I don't know. Most likely, not.

Ian Grant said:

Having used HP3 albeit ex-Government surplus stock (MOD) in the late 1960's as well as quite a lot of HP4 I'd really prefer Ilford to stick to what they currenty sell.

Like the OP I've come back to HP5, I stopped using it when XP1 was released (I was only using it push processed at concerts), ironically it's now my preferred film shooting in Turkey & Greece where I often have to shoot LF hand held (tripods not permitted) so need the exra film speed.

Ian

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I don't think I'd actually be asking them to stop production of HP5+.

I find HP5+ very easy to use. I see no grain increase when pushed to 1600 in R09 and the film doesn't seem to care too much what ASA it is exposed at – I have just exposed test shots at 50,100 and 200 – all look good with minor variations in contrast and grain.

Any recollections or pictures made with HP3/4?

I could probably find and scan some HP3 images. but the major differances were grain & sharpness, the emulsion was softer as well. Back in the late 60's I used far mor FP3 than HP3 though.

Ian

From what I've scanned on FP3 (Old family photo's) It looks like standard 50's panchromatic emulsions. (? Camera, probably standard commercial development of the time)
Attached photo was scanned on an old 35mm neg scanner, then autoadjusted in paint.net

lxdude said:

I think it's like asking Nissan to make new Datsuns.

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They do. They just call 'em Nissans.

Maybe if there's this much demand someone could just make little black boxes that we could put our HP5+ into for a while before opening it again to use.

Roger Cole said:

Maybe if there's this much demand someone could just make little black boxes that we could put our HP5+ into for a while before opening it again to use.

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Talk to the Holga folks. They already supply Shanghai in a custom box.


Of course, with their made up the film would cost three times as much.

I'd love for Ilford to bring back non-substantive Ilfochrome film; it had a unique colour palette. This example is from 1963 - Perhaps they could buy Dwaynes' K-14 processor...

Kevs, tasty colours there.
Is that the Queen on the right?

lxdude said:

I think it's like asking Nissan to make new Datsuns.

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It's like asking Datsun to make new Bluebirds.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Bluebird

Paul VanAudenhove said:

The thing I'd love to see is Ilford bringing back those great re-usable film cassettes. I miss those...

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The real old reuseable ones, or the semi-modern ones.

The first couple of rolls of Ilford film I ever bought came in aluminium cassettes which were in three parts, held together by metal tabs and a label. You could cut the label with your thumbnail in the darkroom and slide off the cap. the entire cassette was lined with felt.

Shortly after they switched to cassettes identical to those used by AGFA at the time. I have been given hints that as a smaller firm, they basically bought machinery from Agfa or Agfa's Suppliers. That is the style shown in the original poster's small photo of the film with the starburst logo.

Later they went to the crimped style that Kodak pioneered. I recall writing to the Ilford rep in Canada at the time, and was told that the professional photographers had requested tha change as the end cap did not come off the crimped cassettes when you dropped them. (I had to give the point as I recall having to return a roll of FP4 that came with a loose end cap.)

The Reusable ones were fundamentally the same as Freestyle sells for reloading. If they were to provide FP4 in those with the DX code, I could bulk-load Fp4. The freestyle ones only come as 100 and 400 ASA, and my current Canon cameras insidt on having the DX code or they flash "ISO" - even if you have set the speed.

Curt said:

It's like asking Datsun to make new Bluebirds.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Bluebird

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Hey - I took my drivers test in a bluebird (sold as a 510 in Canada). Great little car.

cmacd123 said:

Hey - I took my drivers test in a bluebird (sold as a 510 in Canada). Great little car.

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With an engine that had an amazing similarity to an Austin engine .

cmacd123 said:

Hey - I took my drivers test in a bluebird (sold as a 510 in Canada). Great little car.

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Those 510s were brilliant. Weren't they a 2 door version of the 1600?

Dear Mr.Datsun ( Nissan ),

I thought your post was very nicely written, but I now have to construct a nice reply where I have to say no about 10 times without sounding negative....

I remember the plea from the heart for ILFORD branded t shirts etc, I made them, and many of you did buy them ( thanks very much to all who did ) but the remaining ones have been around so long we are thinking of inviting them to the company Christmas party....

I think 'retro' is perfectly valid, it just depends on what you retro, I thought the FORD Capri ( in a rather fetching metallic bronze ) I learned to drive in was fantastic, but I would not really like to have one now as my every day drive...so its a bit like HP4 or HP5, good films in their time but no valid technical or aesthetic reason to return to them.

Old emulsions were quite often a reflection of the times and the raw materials available in that era, so even if you actually wanted to re-create them you would actually find it very difficult.

As to 'specialist' or 'retro' packaging, we have done 'specialist packaging' the APUG orientated 20 x 16 with the competition winners on a couple of years ago, these are 'expensive' to do, when you look at film cassettes they are VERY expensive to do, you need to design, print the metal and assemble the cassettes in VERY large numbers, and there's the rub, these things can be done but they cost more and the actual market size, and purchasers, though enthusiastic, could not justify the additional cost, that would need to be absorbed by us, or passed on to you. Even making cassette boxes in small print runs adds to the cost. As to the lovely steel canisters film used to come in...I reckon about 15p to 20p each! and of course they would have to be loaded by hand...so out of normal production methods adds even more cost.

As to cassette type...we introduced a crimped cassette when we adopted and bought the the AGFA designed cassetting system, many years ago, this requiries a 'structural' type cassette that is robust as the line is entirely automatic and actually loads the film through the aperture of the fully formed cassette. This was also deemed prudent at the time as much film was bought by the press who had adopted motor drives that has an unfortunate habit of 'springing' cassette ends I seem to recall.

As to colour......lets not even go there......

Simon. ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :