Dealing with your own ethical mistakes.

StepheKoontz

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One thing no one has mentioned, some parents (mostly women) have had to escape an abusive partner who could be a threat to their lives or are stalking them, trying to discover where they have moved. All it takes is for a photographer to post a picture of their child online and especially with the facial recognition software we have now, this abuser could locate their target. This might sound far fetched, but if you have ever known someone being stalked by someone who is abusive/possessive like this, their fear is real.

I photograph at public parks a lot, but I stay clear of playgrounds or anyplace kids would hang out for all of these reasons. I honestly think child abuse used to be much more prevalent. It's just when I was growing up in the 1960's no one believed children when they tried to report things.I had a super creepy gym teacher who touched me in pretty inappropriate ways but when I tried to tell teachers/parents, they all just blew it off as normal.
 

guangong

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After reading this thread I find it interesting that I have taken more than a few pictures in local park and playground. I am able to shoot close up of preschoolers and grammar school kids when my grandson is in town. Almost all with 50mm lens on Contax or Leica. Never been bothered. Joke with parents and complement their children. Children playing are easy to photograph because they pay absolutely no attention to camera. Most likely a huge zoom or digital camera the size of a small canon would attract attention, besides looking a little creepy.
I should note that parts of my town are considered photogenic and used as backdrops by fashion photographers. City fathers have initiated fees for professional cinema work. My garage is a favorite.
 

StepheKoontz

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guangong said:
After reading this thread I find it interesting that I have taken more than a few pictures in local park and playground. I am able to shoot close up of preschoolers and grammar school kids when my grandson is in town.
Click to expand...

I'm sure if you are there with your own child/grandchild, no one thinks anything of it. Show up alone and try this, and I suspect you will get a very different reaction.
 

removed account4

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StepheKoontz said:
I'm sure if you are there with your own child/grandchild, no one thinks anything of it. Show up alone and try this, and I suspect you will get a very different reaction.
Click to expand...

maybe?

in the1990s I photographed little league games, was a known quantity to the parents / coaches and kids and worked directly for the LL ViceCommissioner of an affluent community's Little League, I was a 20-something who looked about 17.---and... fast forward to a handful of years ago as an adult 40/50-something male sitting chatting with other marooned parents ( for 12+years as a known quantity to the parents, kids and school ) in need of caffeine at a table at a school playground. from personal experience Its a mixed bag the reactions you might get from parents, whether you have a camera or not.
 
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Raphael

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Just asking : Were you wearing a great gas mask till photographing ?
Sorry, can't resist...
 

Sirius Glass

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As a school principal Anne was directed by the LAUSD not to allow anyone, even news networks, to take photographs or movies, including cell phone, of children without written permission from the parents or guardians for fear of child exploitation. This has been in place for over 30 years. Unfortunately this is the world we live in now.
 

radiant

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Sirius Glass said:
Unfortunately this is the world we live in now.
Click to expand...

I think we can thank Facebook for that. And digital photography. The internetz. And unicorns. Flying saucers. It is important to find someone to blame than to adapt and move on.

I see it pretty fair to ask permission before photographing anyones children - even just to be polite if the answer is obvious..
 

mshchem

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It's purely a profiling situation. If you're a young, slim, white woman. People don't trigger. Part of it is territorial males. I avoid any situation that involves photographing people, I can understand why people feel like their privacy is being violated.
I sure wouldn't expect people to feel comfortable to have a perfect stranger photographing in a place where children gather to play. One thing that might help, in public places would be to have a portfolio of your pictures to show.
Having an assistant, especially female wouldn't hurt.
It's the way it is and it's not going to change.
 

MattKing

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I have no suggestions for how to solve this.
But I can't help but think that the current attitude toward "strangers" in public places where children can be found is likely to cause more harm than good.
Yes, I know that there are people out there who will cause harm. And yes I agree that everyone - parents and others - should be cautious and protective of the safety of children
But I also believe that it is normal and healthy for adults in society to interact with children who are not their own, and for children to interact with adults that are not their parents.
I am a male in my 60s. There is nothing untoward about the fact that if walk past a public park where children are playing, that I enjoy the simple pleasure of the sounds and sights of that play. I believe most people are like me - they like children, and wouldn't want to do anything to harm them.
It is a good thing - good for adults, good for children and good for society - that adults like children and are interested in their well-being.
There has to be some way of helping children be both safe and engaged with the community around them.
On the subject of photographing other people's children, I think it very sad that it now creates such fear.
 

Helge

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The insane thing is that if you pulled out your phone no one would bat an eyelid. You could shoot away all day.
One thing is that most people wouldn’t notice someone shooting away, another is that even if they did, they would merely shrug it off.
Exactly why that is, I can’t really wrap my mind around.
 

MattKing

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Helge said:
The insane thing is that if you pulled out your phone no one would bat an eyelid. You could shoot away all day.
Click to expand...
Well, I use a flip phone, so I might be noticed for that.
 

Vaughn

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You would be noticed at the playground. "Most" people wouldn’t notice someone shooting -- but many do.
 

guangong

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StepheKoontz said:
I'm sure if you are there with your own child/grandchild, no one thinks anything of it. Show up alone and try this, and I suspect you will get a very different reaction.
Click to expand...
I do go alone without grandchild and never have had any problem whatsoever. Sorry to disappoint! Of course, nowadays kids can't go anywhere without some kind of guardian tagging along, which is a sad commentary about our time. The sorriest phenomenon is the disappearance of sandlot baseball, where everybody in the neighborhood got to play, with Little League and the involvement of adults, who are keen on winning rather than playing.
Could it be that some of the comments have been made by people who look creepy? Not that they are, but they just look that way. Behavior counts for a lot.
 

Vaughn

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And of course, the concern parents are (on purpose, or not) sending signals to their kids about what type of 'characters' to be wary of. And solo men hanging around parks for any reason fits the profile. Speaking only for the USA, we do not have a trusting society, from the very top, down to not trusting others not like oneself in one's neighborhood.
 
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TheGreatGasMaskMan

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This is all boiling down to an idea I've been developing recently (I'm still trying to find the ideal wording)- yet I haven't realized how many areas of life I have to apply this to:

"To assume any label, either ascribed or attained asserts you must accept set behavioral expectations regardless of your content or character."

Therefore, as a man I am automatically a pervert, even though I'm not.

this image below is child exploitation, even though it's not.
 
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Vaughn

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Just do not assume the label...or be a little more selective about the label one assumes.

I am a large hairy male. As a big male I modify my actions as not to inadvertently be perceived as a big threat to others, especially females of all ages. No big deal, one modifies one's actions to protect oneself -- as the song goes, one does not tug on Superman's cape, spit into the wind and all that -- so extending that awareness for others is not a challenge and becomes habit.
 
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TheGreatGasMaskMan

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I try not to- I just cannot control my dark impulsive thoughts sometimes.
it doesn't matter how often people have been genuinely interested in my old cameras- one serious incident like this is enough to cut deep.
 

Helge

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It also has a great deal to do with such an ethereal thing as aura and what vibe you send out.
If you dress nicely/tastefully and look like you take care of yourself (in the generic public eyes), you have a better chance of getting away with stuff in general.
But even that is just a rule of thumb. Some people just have an aura of trust around them, almost no matter how they present themselves.
Think of Colombo, or watch some videos of Garry Winogrand, for some real world examples.
Some people are just Teflon for suspicion and attacks.
They might not stick around long enough for it to arise, they might move in a way that they are not seen, or they might look very innocent and sympathetic.
Sadly it appears it can not be learned.
You can learn some stuff to mitigate or avoid conflict or suspicion. But you’ll never get good at it, if it’s not natural.
Think Tom Hanks against Jack Nicholson.
 
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guangong

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When my daughter was a little girl, teachers were pushing the "everybody is nice" narrative. When on subway or on street I would point out people she should be aware of. She developed good street smarts. Even then, when she was 8 years old, while on rush hour train a suited business man gave her a nasty kick in the leg when her school bag brushed up against him. The contemporary world is difficult to navigate.
Personally, I find children at play and adults in bars the least self conscious subjects for pictures.
 

pentaxuser

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TheGreatGasMaskMan said:
I try not to- I just cannot control my dark impulsive thoughts sometimes.
it doesn't matter how often people have been genuinely interested in my old cameras- one serious incident like this is enough to cut deep.
Click to expand...
I haven't included it but you made a comment that suggested a picture of a particularly attractive design on a children's playground apparatus indicated you are a pervert. Clearly by itself as it stands it does not, nor of course and rightly so, do you believe it does either .

In another playground and/or with another set of parents there may not have been a problem but I just don't know as I wasn't there.

You have several choices: 1. Do not go anywhere near that playground again and feel wronged with nothing changing

2. Decide that photographing playground equipment is what you want to do and try and determine if there is anything you can do to avoid an altercation again such as the way you approach the area, how you act when in the area, what will be your strategy if there are children near by or on the equipment you wish to photograph. Did you engage the suspicious adults in conversation for instance, declare who you were, what you were trying to do etc

3. Simply ignore the adults protestations and summon the police yourself, asserting that you were under threat of assault and your right to photograph anything and anybody including kids in a public place

You then have to decide the likely outcomes of each course of action work and decide which produces the best result.

It is just possible that even option 2 will not change anything so the wrong you feel was done to you will remain a feeling forever. If this were to be the case then you have my sympathies that feeling of yours changes nothing. So I believe it to be in your self interest to solve the problem in the sense that no one else has a problem that needs solving so only you have a vested interest in improving future outcomes. No-one else except you has any incentive to do anything to change the future

Best of luck

pentaxuser
 

BrianShaw

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YouTube: first amendment audits; photography JIS not a crime. See the situations, options, and results. Then choose which option you care to take.
 
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