dawn and dusk with no meter

I am 100% comfortable 90% of the time with no exposure meter. But dawn and dusk get me every time. There are no shadows to read. I don't know how to guess exposure. The Kodak exposure guidelines give advice for daylight and even for night shots, but leave out the hours when the sun is low in the sky. If I knew the time and the sunrise/sunset time, I could probably get close based on that, but I have never seen such a chart. What do other people do, besides use a meter of course?

Get out Weston and put dome on subjects nose within two hours of local sunrise or sunset, for night I use a lunasix.

The problem is with the cosine it varies too rapidly...

I would agree that dawn and dusk are very tricky times on shoot without a meter. The problem is that absolute light levels change very rapidly at the beginning and end of the day but our eyes are so good at compensating that we really cannot perceive the difference. I don't think there is an easy/reliable answer to you question.

I'd agree with Xmas that a Weston light meter is a great investment. I've got a Weston Euromaster which is pocket sized and works extremely well. I faffed around for a couple of years with apps on my phone but never found one which worked completely reliably. Now that I've gone back to using a proper light meter my negatives have improved dramatically.

For "Skylines, 10 min. after sunset," the existing light dial of my 1960s-era Kodak Master Photoguide suggests exposures between 1/60th and 1/30th, at f/2.0, using High Speed Ektachrome (which was ASA 160 if I remember correctly). This sounds about right to me; I've shot quite a few 100 and 200 ISO slides at 1/60th and f/1.8-f/2.8 under similar conditions. I'd recommend bracketing somewhat if possible.

No matter whatever you do bracket all difficult exposures.

Dear BetterSense,

If I have only one party trick its exposure guessing, tell me the ISO, point me at what is to be photographed and frankly I could amaze myself on a daily basis.... I am very good ! looking out my window now ISO 125 250th @ F11.

I actually though have one very big advantage... I do not need a an exposure meter, as most of my camera's have one... in addition I probably ( in fact certainly ) pay less for film than you do and I bracket, boy do I bracket, always have, always will, I guess everyone knows
my Mantra.... 'only a good negative can make a really good print, no matter how good the printer'.

Simonh82s advise is apposite.

Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

The choices are bracket or get a light meter. The subject brightness range [SBR] varies greatly depending on clarity of the air and clouds, then it changes quickly.

Simon R Galley said:

Dear BetterSense,

If I have only one party trick its exposure guessing, tell me the ISO, point me at what is to be photographed and frankly I could amaze myself on a daily basis.... I am very good ! looking out my window now ISO 125 250th @ F11.

I actually though have one very big advantage... I do not need a an exposure meter, as most of my camera's have one... in addition I probably ( in fact certainly ) pay less for film than you do and I bracket, boy do I bracket, always have, always will, I guess everyone knows
my Mantra.... 'only a good negative can make a really good print, no matter how good the printer'.

Simonh82s advise is apposite.

Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

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Dear Simon,
I wish Ilford would still have a way for someone to 'earn the title of Master Printer
BTW,AA was sure that bracketing was only for people who didn't know how to expose and process correctly.I'm sure you do,so why bracket?

Simon R Galley said:

Dear BetterSense,

If I have only one party trick its exposure guessing, tell me the ISO, point me at what is to be photographed and frankly I could amaze myself on a daily basis.... I am very good ! looking out my window now ISO 125 250th @ F11.

I actually though have one very big advantage... I do not need a an exposure meter, as most of my camera's have one... in addition I probably ( in fact certainly ) pay less for film than you do and I bracket, boy do I bracket, always have, always will, I guess everyone knows
my Mantra.... 'only a good negative can make a really good print, no matter how good the printer'.

Simonh82s advise is apposite.

Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

Click to expand...

Dear Simon,

in many situation braket is a waste of films (and of money if you use MF of LF...), especially when the contrast of the scene is low. I'd rather suggest to learn how to use a good meter (with incident and reflected read), a very forgiving film like tri-x and a general pourpose developer.
With Gossen Lunasix + TRI-X + D76(1+1) you should limit braketing to high contrast scene only because you can get easily printable negatives in most of case.

ok, you work for Ilford .... i work as an engineer for Fiat Auto, but as a daily car I use an Audi.... When my company offered me a Fiat for free, I put it on eBay and I bought a 2nd hand Audi....My boss was surprised for that decision, but I giustified as "deep competitor analysis".

Simon, let start to use Tri-x in D76, you will be amazed and it will become your new Mantra

AA was sure that bracketing was only for people who didn't know how to expose and process correctly.

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Yet he describes in a film having to take multiple exposures of one of his most iconic photos. It was dusk and the light was changing rapidly. He wanted the cross atop the old Spanish mission to glow. I'm sure that many will recognize the scene to which I am referring. So even an Ansel Adams brackets when faced with a difficult situation.

It must always be remembered that the human eye does not respond linearly to light as does a light meter. Therefore it is easily fooled.

The OP stated that the exposure problem under discussion was "getting him every time," therefore my advice to bracket. I would give the same advice to any student trying to learn how to expose a difficult scene. It's simply a way to learn.

I shoot MF chromes more than BW so exposure selection is more critical. I use a light meter but bracket anyway. Film is cheap compared to gas, your time, etc. Plus, if you screw-up the shot due to wrong exposure, you'll be kicking yourself forever.

Gerald C Koch said:

Yet he describes in a film having to take multiple exposures of one of his most iconic photos. It was dusk and the light was changing rapidly. He wanted the cross atop the old Spanish mission to glow. I'm sure that many will recognize the scene to which I am referring. So even an Ansel Adams brackets when faced with a difficult situation.

It must always be remembered that the human eye does not respond linearly to light as does a light meter. Therefore it is easily fooled.

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The description sounds like Moonrise, Hernandez, New Mexico, 1941. Adams made only one shot. He tried to make a second shot at the same exposure for insurance, but the light faded in those few seconds.

rthomas said:

The OP stated that the exposure problem under discussion was "getting him every time," therefore my advice to bracket. I would give the same advice to any student trying to learn how to expose a difficult scene. It's simply a way to learn.

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No you need to listen to students and tell them when they are wrong.
Sunny side 16 is reliable two hours after sunrise to two hours before sun down.
Otherwise use a meter.
Sure with a static scene you can bracket but AA's example (in thread) was not static and he was lucky. He had no time to take a reading so shot at risk?
Using a manual camera is not experience but rules.

Jim Jones said:

The description sounds like Moonrise, Hernandez, New Mexico, 1941. Adams made only one shot. He tried to make a second shot at the same exposure for insurance, but the light faded in those few seconds.

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You may be right. It's been a long time since I saw the video. I remember him trying to take more than one shot. In a way though he was not confident with a single shot in a difficult lighting situation.

Dear All,

Bracketing is something I have always done, except for a brief period as a professional wedding photographer ( and even then I used two cameras and used one for the first half of the wedding and the other for the second half... ).

Its just that basically that as part of my journey to being a photographer I was a printer....( we had to go through every department to learn, it was an apprenticeship really ) as I have shared with you before I had to print up to 1,500 prints per week. We used ILFORD ILFOSPEED Graded paper and KODAK chemistry.... every time you had to shade and dodge it slowed you down, we had 6 photographers working full time, all types of photography studio / wedding / industrial / commercial / studio etc it was amazing but you quickly learnt whose neg's were best, and to have a choice ( bracketed ) was best of all, to be sure, if you do dodge and burn you can actually improve most prints but mostly it was a commercially acceptable print we had to do, with little waste rather than an aesthetically pleasing or perfect one !.

For my own 'proper' photography and in truth only for 'keeper' shots I go up a stop and down a stop from my estimation in half stops, so 5 exposures, and they go through the Refrema at work, I rarely need to D&B and I have spare negs I contact and choose the one that will print the best... its really very simple. I'm not saying its the correct thing to do..but it's what I do...

To my poster friend from Italy.... Tri-X is a great film always has been... but Man and Boy I have always been ILFORD, although my Grandfather who set me out on this passion over 40 years ago always said 'Kodak for film but ILFORD for paper'.... and I still have, and revere the Kodak Retinette he bought me. 6 years ago we had a family holiday to a few European capitals rather than the beach.... my daughter literally fell in Love with the new FIAT 500 that back then had not long been launched she saw for the first time on a Rome street.... and guess what...she drives a gun metal grey one now, she learnt on it, drives it, and just adores it.... the power of brand, fashion and not a little bit of style !. I like you prefer German......!!!!

As to the ILFORD Master Printer title... interesting thought, which I will think about.

Simon ILFORD photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

Simon,thanks for the insight.By default,I did Kodak film and Ilford paper for20 years;now with self-made processing chemicals;never got into wedding photography;too scary and hard to redo if it didn't work right the first time.

Dear Ralph,

Wedding photography is a great responsibility.... I used to be nervous from Saturday till the prints came back Tuesday.. it is perhaps a good use for D*****l : But ... my old boss taught me three important things 1 ) Be quick 2 ) 16 shots tell the 'story' of a wedding and most important of all wedding photography was 90% people work and 10% camera work... how correct he was.... he would turn in his grave if he saw the intrusion of some ( usually untrained ) of the d****l wedding photographers ( not all to be fair ).... 600 shots... and on occasion not a thoughtful shot amongst them... hey ho....

Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited.

Hi Simon,

Kudos to you. I did weddings for a short period of time. I found that I lacked the patience to deal with bridezilla, mother of bridezilla, and Uncle Walter and his Instamatic getting in the way.

Jerry