David Alan Harvey kicked out of Magnum

ChristopherCoy · Mar 18, 2021

Wallendo said:
I read the entire article. Mr. Harvey doesn't come across well. Magnum actually comes across fairly badly also. I wonder how their "holistic investigation" will turn out.

I just read a few paragraphs from a few different links. It sounds more like a situation where he may have harassed a co-worker, but it was a he said she said type of thing, and someone reached way back to the late 80's to find something to stick to the wall.

logan2z · Mar 18, 2021

ChristopherCoy said:
I just read a few paragraphs from a few different links. It sounds more like a situation where he may have harassed a co-worker, but it was a he said she said type of thing, and someone reached way back to the late 80's to find something to stick to the wall.

There's quite a bit more to it than that. It's a long article, but the link I posted at the beginning of this thread spells a lot of it out.

Don_ih · Mar 18, 2021

ChristopherCoy said:
I googled it, and recognized probably only two of the names. Erwitt and Bresson. But that still doesn' tell me much about what magnum does or what it's purpose is. From my brief search, it looks like just another club for the elitist's.

It was started as a photographer's cooperative agency whereby they could control the type of work they did and retained the copyright for their product. Essentially, it's a worldwide photographic agency run by photographers that answers only to itself. Bruce Davison and Bruce Gilden (and maybe other New Yorkers named Bruce) are well-known members. I think Dennis Stock was a member, also.

Arthurwg · Mar 18, 2021

ChristopherCoy said:
That's something an elitest would say.

Elitist? Don't be silly. We're all created equal. And DAH has joined the elite company of Dr. Seuss!

logan2z · Mar 18, 2021

Arthurwg said:
And DAH has joined the elite company of Dr. Seuss!

And other photographers...

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/04/arts/design/thomas-roma-columbia-retires.html

Not as well known as many of the Magnum photographers, but he is Lee Friedlander's son-in-law.

Cholentpot · Mar 18, 2021

I'm aware of Magnum but I don't know it's membership rolls by heart. I know the most famous of them like most photographers do. Otherwise? I don't really care much for celebs of any sort. This doesn't diminish their art, or mine for that matter. Some of us just don't care. My favorite photographers are not part of the Magnum group.

Vaughn · Mar 18, 2021

Read the linked article, Chris.

ChristopherCoy · Mar 18, 2021

Vaughn said:
Read the linked article, Chris.

I did, which is why I deleted my post. That article has a lot of information that isn't contained in the others that I searched and read. It's the only one that I read that cited 13 allegations though. But whether Harvey is guilty or not, one thing is clear - the media certainly ruins any chances of either side getting a fair case.

Vaughn · Mar 18, 2021

I see it differently...society, businesses, and public media has supported the harrassment of women...largely by being silent about it. Women are finally getting a fair case because of the change in reporting.

BradS · Mar 18, 2021

Vaughn said:
I see it differently...society, businesses, and public media has supported the harrassment of women...largely by being silent about it. Women are finally getting a fair case because of the change in reporting.

A couple of thoughts:

The harassment goes and has always gone both ways (man harassing woman as well as woman harassing man).
The standard of acceptable conduct has changed dramatically over the last 30 years. It's not right or fair in all cases to judge conduct alleged to have happened 30+ years ago by today's standards.
Corporations do not give tiny little fuck about individual human beings...at all. Corporations are only concerned about money.
The news media are corporations and as such, they too care only about money. They do not care one little about people nor seemingly, the truth.

BradS · Mar 18, 2021

more...

I've never heard of David A. Harvey either.
Magnum is an elitist organization. I think they would even agree.

warden · Mar 18, 2021

jawarden said:
As someone who is clearly interested in reading and the creative process I think you will find a rewarding exercise with more than just a brief search. These are fine photographers that have stories to tell.

Wayne said:
That may be the problem. I'm not much for story telling photography. I look at images to look at images...

When I responded to Chris that "These are fine photographers that have stories to tell" I was referring to the stories of their lives and their personal creative process, something that Chris seems to be interested in if I can judge based on his posts about what he reads. I wasn't referring to storytelling photography, but I can see how my post could have been interpreted that way.

Edit:
By the way, Koudelka (a Magnum photographer) agrees with you about storytelling:

I don’t like picture stories. In fact I think picture stories destroyed all photography. You needed to have a close-up and you needed to do other things and for me I am interested in one picture that tells many different stories to different people. That is to me a sign of the good picture.

https://lens.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/11/19/josef-koudelka-formed-by-the-world/

Vaughn · Mar 18, 2021

Racism also goes both ways...but the power behind the racism and its impacts rests in the USA with the whites...and is ingrained in our society. Women have been second-class citizens, where the predation of people like DAH of them is accepted and considered normal by the males of society. And since males have traditionally controlled media and companies -- and dominated Magnum for most of its existence, the situation has been allowed to continue.

It is like saying men have been raping women for thousands of years, why the big fuss now?

Richard Man · Mar 18, 2021

Thank you Vaughn!

and yes, Japanese culture is different from America's, but it does not mean that some of the greats, like Araki, will not be re-evaluated at some point. The original "sin" of the Thai girl prostitute images are probably miscalculation of Magnum's part in getting their entire archive up on the web without thinking it through. The images were OK at that time and probably did provoke some people to look at the situations and try to do better, but, well, 2020 is different from 2000.

Vaughn said:
Racism also goes both ways...but the power behind the racism and its impacts rests in the USA with the whites...and is ingrained in our society. Women have been second-class citizens, where the predation of people like DAH of them is accepted and considered normal by the males of society. And since males have traditionally controlled media and companies -- and dominated Magnum for most of its existence, the situation has been allowed to continue.

It is like saying men have been raping women for thousands of years, why the big fuss now?

ChristopherCoy · Mar 18, 2021

Vaughn said:
Racism also goes both ways...but the power behind the racism and its impacts rests in the USA with the whites...and is ingrained in our society.

The power of racism rests with all races, because every person of every race at one time or another has disliked someone else based on race alone. And before racism can exist, it has to be thought of.

logan2z · Mar 18, 2021

BradS said:
The standard of acceptable conduct has changed dramatically over the last 30 years. It's not right or fair in all cases to judge conduct alleged to have happened 30+ years ago by today's standards.

Some of the allegations discussed in the article are based on conduct from 2009.

BradS · Mar 18, 2021

Vaughn said:
It is like saying men have been raping women for thousands of years, why the big fuss now?

No. It's not. It is not even close and you know it. This is hyperbole. Don't insult my intelligence.

Arthurwg · Mar 18, 2021

I guess "Me Tarzan You Jane" is truly over, at least for now.

BradS · Mar 18, 2021

logan2z said:
Some of the allegations discussed in the article are based on conduct from 2009.

Which is kinda my point. Conduct that may have been (I'm not saying what he did was or wasn't) perfectly acceptable to all involved then is not necessarily acceptable now.

logan2z · Mar 18, 2021

BradS said:
Which is kinda my point. Conduct that may have been (I'm not saying what he did was or wasn't) perfectly acceptable to all involved then is not necessarily acceptable now.

OK, you said 30+ years ago so I was just pointing out that it was much more recent than that.

I'm not sure that the standards of acceptable behavior have changed dramatically in the last 12 years. I believe that what we consider sexual harassment now is pretty much what we thought it was in 2009. The women in question reported the behavior then (and some much earlier) so clearly none of them believed it was acceptable at that point.

BradS · Mar 18, 2021

logan2z said:
...
I'm not sure that the standards of acceptable behavior have changed dramatically in the last 12 years. I believe that what we consider sexual harassment now is pretty much what we thought it was in 2009. The women in question reported the behavior then (and some much earlier) so clearly none of them believed it was acceptable.

Yes. Standards of conduct in the work place have, in some cases, very definitely changed dramatically in the past 10 years. That obviously does not imply that what was unacceptable then is now the least bit acceptable. Quite the contrary. Little things that were completely acceptable then are, in some cases, unacceptable now. Things that are easily attributable to simple biology are now condemned as "micro-aggression".

The fact that women complained about his behavior then and the corporation did not act on it at the time may be a different issue (see my previous comments regarding what corporations care about) or it may be precisely this issue....or the alleged injury may be retrospective. Again, I emphasis, I am not saying what DAH allegedly did or did not do it ok or not ok. I am NOT in anyway passing any judgement on him or his accusers.

Vaughn · Mar 18, 2021

BradS said:
No. It's not. It is not even close and you know it. This is hyperbole. Don't insult my intelligence.

Yeah, It is a stretch, but contains a lot of truth. Rape has been seen as a legitimate tool of war -- more in the past than now, but it is still happening now.

BradS · Mar 18, 2021

Vaughn said:
Yeah, It is a stretch, but contains a lot of truth. Rape has been seen as a legitimate tool of war -- more in the past than now, but it is still happening now.

Red herring. The thread is about corporations. Not war.

Vaughn · Mar 18, 2021

It is about men harrassing women, which has traditionally happened in our society.

Brett Weston came by our university and 'harvested' a new female assistant from our crop of students to take back to Hawaii. The professor sat the student down and (I can only assume this) warned her about what she was getting into. I am not sure if she ended up going back to Hawaii -- this was only a few years before he died.

Richard Man · Mar 18, 2021

BradS said:
Which is kinda my point. Conduct that may have been (I'm not saying what he did was or wasn't) perfectly acceptable to all involved then is not necessarily acceptable now.

It was perfectly acceptable to get some women drunk, take her home and "had a good time", but that doesn't mean it is right.

It was perfectly acceptable to put Japanese Americans in camps, that doesn't mean it is right.

It was perfectly acceptable to call me "Chinaman" a few decades ago, but that doesn't mean it is right.

It was perfectly acceptable to have John Wayne to act as Genghis Kahn, but that doesn't make it right.

It was also OK to flog the enslaved, made kids work in factories.... etc.

David Alan Harvey kicked out of Magnum

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