Dating and developing Fortepan film

M-88 · Aug 14, 2020

Hello

A friend of mine found this roll of Fortepan 200, which is very likely to be exposed. Sadly, we don't know its age. My best guess is 30-35 years. Can anyone who has an experience with European films pinpoint the date?

And of course the main question: how do I develop it? A reasonable thing to do would be to snip some length of film and develop it in certain way to see whether i should increase or decrease the time, but still, I'd be happy to have a better method.

Thank you.

Frank53 · Aug 14, 2020

Don’t know about the film, but my expirience is that any film will give useable result in Rodinal 1:100 1hour stand development.
The cassette shows some signs that look like moisture. Hope the film is in a better condition. In that case, don’t waste your time with it.
Regards,
Frank

Cholentpot · Aug 14, 2020

I just pulled a Fortepan 100 out of my freezer. I was wondering the same.

Agulliver · Aug 14, 2020

My general "go to" with very old exposed film is ID-11 at roughly 20C, two inversions per minute for 7-8 minutes. That should get some sort of image from any photographic film unless it's unexposed or very badly fogged.

The cassette has a 70s or early 80s look to it but Forte may have been behind the times. I've not seen that label before.

foc · Aug 14, 2020

The cassettes look like the Ilford & Agfa ones from the 1970's, with the pop off ends not crimped.

removed account4 · Aug 14, 2020

Hi M-88
Does your friend have any print developer like DEKTOL / D72 ? If so, dilute 1:6 and develop for 6-7 mins, it will look nice-nice.
Dektol/D72 and Ansc0130 are my goto developers for all formats, if I run out of coffee, I would also suggest using CAFFENOL C
but adding d72/dektol in it about 20-25cc/L. mix some dilute desktop 1:10, process the film in there for 6 mins, agitate normally ..
then put the film in the caffneolC. ( really Dcaffenol ). and agitate continuously for 6 mins.. works great with every film. normally I'd say 5 mins and 5 mins
but that film looks about 40 years old so I upped the time

have a nice nite !

John

gorbas · Aug 14, 2020

John, you are talking about 1:6 from Dektol concentrate, not from standard dilution 1:3 and then from it 1:6?
For me, for unknown film, Rodinal 1:100 for 20min 20C with normal agitation. If it's slow film, then 15min will do it.

removed account4 · Aug 14, 2020

gorbas said:
John, you are talking about 1:6 from Dektol concentrate, not from standard dilution 1:3 and then from it 1:6?
For me, for unknown film, Rodinal 1:100 for 20min 20C with normal agitation. If it's slow film, then 15min will do it.

hi gorbas
yes I am talking from stock solution 1dektol+6water .... PE used to write how with PPF ( paper plate film ) universal developers the typical dilution 1:[dilution number]. for {dilution number} minutes ... so 1:7 7 mins, 1:10 10 mins. ... I have never used Rodinal .. if I have/had I probably wouldn't mention the print developers. . I've used ansco 130, gaf universal, dektol and d72 like this for 20+ years and it seems to work well .. the split developing method I mention is something I started doing about 5 years ago.. it works OK too .. but obviously continuous agitation for 5 mins can be a real drag

AgX · Aug 14, 2020

Frank53 said:
The cassette shows some signs that look like moisture. Hope the film is in a better condition. In that case, don’t waste your time with it.

Could be foxing, but could also be diffusion of pressure adhesive glue (in case Forte used such adhesive labels at all).

M-88 · Aug 15, 2020

Frank53 said:
Don’t know about the film, but my expirience is that any film will give useable result in Rodinal 1:100 1hour stand development.
The cassette shows some signs that look like moisture. Hope the film is in a better condition. In that case, don’t waste your time with it.
Regards,
Frank

Thank you. I noticed the damage as well, but it comes from Moscow and hopefully it's not too humid. The film has to be processed either way.

Agulliver said:
My general "go to" with very old exposed film is ID-11 at roughly 20C, two inversions per minute for 7-8 minutes. That should get some sort of image from any photographic film unless it's unexposed or very badly fogged.

The cassette has a 70s or early 80s look to it but Forte may have been behind the times. I've not seen that label before.

You are talking about stock solution for 7-8 minutes, right? Over a year ago I processed single roll of Soviet "Mikrat-200" film and a single roll of Svema-64 film. Both yielded acceptable results, albeit heavily fogged, probably due to an age. So my guess is, same can be done with Forte then. Thanks a lot!

jnantz said:
Hi M-88
Does your friend have any print developer like DEKTOL / D72 ? If so, dilute 1:6 and develop for 6-7 mins, it will look nice-nice.
Dektol/D72 and Ansc0130 are my goto developers for all formats, if I run out of coffee, I would also suggest using CAFFENOL C
but adding d72/dektol in it about 20-25cc/L. mix some dilute desktop 1:10, process the film in there for 6 mins, agitate normally ..
then put the film in the caffneolC. ( really Dcaffenol ). and agitate continuously for 6 mins.. works great with every film. normally I'd say 5 mins and 5 mins
but that film looks about 40 years old so I upped the time

have a nice nite !

John

My friend won't have to get busy with this roll. But I will I'll check with my chem shop if they have sodium carbonate and potassium bromide. If they do, I'll brew D-72. The film is still on its way, so I have a few days. And thank you for an elaborate post on how I should do it all, I'm a novice and do things exclusively with ID-11/D-76, so I really appreciate the effort.

railwayman3 · Aug 15, 2020

I have some 127 and 120 Ilford Selochrome films dated 1966, a couple exposed and others unused. Given the difficulties in determining developer and timing for ancient films, would there be any scope in using a monobath developer, such as the new Ars-Imago product ?

M-88 · Aug 15, 2020

I may be wrong, but I'd try to avoid monobath, since it gives you little control over development process. If any at all.

Agulliver · Aug 15, 2020

Yes, ID-11 stock for 7-8 minutes with a couple of inversions per minute. My understanding is that ID-11 can develop just about any photographic emulsion. It might not always be the best, but if you're not sure of any factors (film age, when exposed, how it was stored) it's possibly the safest choice. You'll almost certainly get images.

You can certainly try other suggestions, especially where people have specific experience with FortePan. My only experience with Forte was from film produced in the early 2000s, which I got around to shooting 15 years later. I used the regimen I describe above and got great results but the circumstances were different.

railwayman3 · Aug 15, 2020

M-88 said:
I may be wrong, but I'd try to avoid monobath, since it gives you little control over development process. If any at all.

On reflection, I think you may be right. My first idea was that a monobath might "develop just as much as needed", but, while this may be correct for a fresh and correctly-exposed modern film, we don't know the loss in speed of an ancient film . So a monobath would not compensate for this loss of sensitivity and the results just look underexposed ?

M-88 · Aug 15, 2020

railwayman3 said:
On reflection, I think you may be right. My first idea was that a monobath might "develop just as much as needed", but, while this may be correct for a fresh and correctly-exposed modern film, we don't know the loss in speed of an ancient film . So a monobath would not compensate for this loss of sensitivity and the results just look underexposed ?

Well, according to datasheet of DF96, it is possible to push/pull the film with monobath, but I'm not sure about its performance. I always thought monobath was only a last resort solution in case when there was no time or place to do things "by the book". But I have no experience whatsoever with monobath, so I can't give a competent answer.

gorbas · Aug 15, 2020

jnantz said:
yes I am talking from stock solution 1dektol+6water

Thank you John!
I got intrigued by many of your's, late PE and others posts here for diluted Dektol so I did try it a few times and it works much better than I expected.
What I did not like with films I tried in it (mostly expired Plus X) is dark blue/cyan base of the negative. With Rodinal it's much less pronounced.

Donald Qualls · Aug 16, 2020

I recently found the Massive Dev Chart has listings for Fortepan (I needed it because my 4x5 film holders were loaded with .EDU 400 -- relabeled Fortepan -- when stored away in 2007). I processed the 400 speed in Xtol replenished stock (in a Yankee Agitank) for 12 minutes at 20C with standard agitation (fifteen seconds each minute) and got good results. The Fortepan 200 will probably want less time than the 400, of course.

M-88 · Aug 16, 2020

I saw that list too. Oddly enough it is in "obsolete" category and can't be accessed directly, but I thought an old film would require some adjustment.

M-88 · Sep 7, 2020

Guess what? The cassette was empty. Turps out it's a reusable cassette with pop-off top and bottom and I guess grandfather of my friend just kept it around so that he could hand-roll the film into it. I feel kinda sad I won't have a chance to develop a mystery roll.

Dating and developing Fortepan film

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