Darkroom respirators

Alexandra · Jul 11, 2011

Thanks for all the suggestions!
All the ventilation and heating conduits of the house go through the room where my darkroom is, so I think it wouldn't be too hard to get some fresh air coming in. I may also use the window for sucking polluted air outside.

One last thing: Can someone give me a definite answer to my original question, which really pertained to the respirator I have. It's got cartridges against organic vapors and acid gas and a particle filter. Is it the right kind? How useful will it be with and without ventilation?

Renato Tonelli · Jul 11, 2011

I'll take an oblique stab at it: I think it's a step in the right direction and it is what I do when I mix chemistry and when I' toning prints. I chose the same cartridges as you on the advice of the occupational safety person at my University. He told me that for normal darkroom work I did not need it as the ventilation was more than sufficient.
Although I have good ventilation in the darkroom I use (at a University), I still use face mask/respirator (and safety glasses/goggles) because I feel the difference and mostly, I feel safer.

I have no other place to mix powder chemistry or do the toning steps which stink to high heaven, so I
feel that a mask and safety glasses are a good insurance.

As others have suggested, in your case, a respirator will not be enough; you need some air intake and exhaust - it doesn't have to be fancy or expensive. Get a copy of the "Darkroom Handbook" - it has sensible and affordable suggestions with diagrams on how to make it work.

Dan Daniel · Jul 12, 2011

Alexandra, you need to find the Material Safety Data Sheet for the chemicals in use. this will tell you the hazardous materials. From this, you then look at the cartridge manufacturer's recommendation for use. Sorry I can't be more specific. Learning to track down this info is a useful skill, anyway. I don't know what the Canadian equivalent is, but the US versions should all be available on the internet.

In general, the cartridge sounds right. Go over the respirator instructions. One simple thing to remember- if you can smell the chemicals with the respirator on, either the fit is wrong or the cartridges are shot. To test fit, cover the exhaust port with your hand and breathe out softly. Air should not escape from the edges of the mask.

Some chemicals have minimal or no smell. As I read about one chemical I used in certain painting operations, 'dont worry what it smells like because if you can smell it you're already toast.' Again, you need to know the specific chemicals you are dealing with!

Keep a respirator in a sealed plastic bag between uses. This will keep the cartridges from being worn out by atmospheric pollution and chemicals.

Bob-D659 · Jul 12, 2011

If you told us what the cartridge number is, that would help a whole lot. You can also call 3M and ask them directly, go to www.3M.com/OccSafety all the info on their carts is available, and then you can call.

With or without a respirator, without replacement air, you could deplete the oxygen content eventually and pass out if you are in there for too long. All depends on how leaky the room is and the size in cubic feet.

Way too many unknowns to give you valid advice, except add ventilation.

Ian Grant · Jul 12, 2011

I've used those or similar respirators when spraying chemistry industrially, and gone one step further when spraying liquid emulsions using an airline respirator fed from outside the room.

However they aren't needed in a normal darkroom, a simple fan venting the fumes is better, and quite efficient.

Ian

Alexandra · Jul 12, 2011

Alright. I'll look into what can be done in that particular room. I'll try to get a hold of the "Darkroom handbook" too. Since I learned to develop and print more or less by myself with the help of the internet, I never got to read any books on designing and planning a darkroom. I think now's a good time.

I'll probably be passing by my local darkroom equipment store, so I'll ask them what's available for immediate purchase or order.

warden · Jul 12, 2011

If you're feeling dizzy that's a serious issue, even if you don't use the darkroom all that often. You're lucky to have a window in the darkroom. If you search for "Doran fan" you can find some for under $150 that will easily install, be light tight, and empty the room of fumes in no time. You can take it with you when you move. I've been using mine for a month or so and haven't noticed an increase in dust. Good luck!

MattKing · Jul 12, 2011

Alexandra said:
Alright. I'll look into what can be done in that particular room. I'll try to get a hold of the "Darkroom handbook" too. Since I learned to develop and print more or less by myself with the help of the internet, I never got to read any books on designing and planning a darkroom. I think now's a good time.

I'll probably be passing by my local darkroom equipment store, so I'll ask them what's available for immediate purchase or order.

Alexandra:

The Kodak website has all sorts of useful downloads.

Here is a link to the "Technical Publications" list:

http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/support/databanks/filmDatabankIndex.jhtml

And a link to a "Darkroom Design" resource:

http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/support/techPubs/ak3/ak3.pdf

jp80874 · Jul 12, 2011

You might look for the following two books to fill any holes in your learning process. They are standard texts for both high school and college Photo I and Photo II courses. You might find them helpful with the details. I did even after 40 years of shooting. The books are so popular and plentiful that I think I found the second on eBay for $3.00

Black and White Photography, a basic manual, Henry Horenstein, Little Brown
Beyond Basic Photography Horenstein, Henry, Little Brown

Here is the Kodak book on designing a darkroom that I mentioned in an earlier post. Building a Home Darkroom, Ray Miller, Kodak Workshop Series, 1996

John Powers

Mustafa Umut Sarac · Jul 12, 2011

Alexandra ,

Allergy is serious trouble for your lungs and if it goes more serious , you cant believe what a serious cost to you. There must be enviromently safe and no health concern developers out there. Caffenol developers are safe in my knowledge. Start a new thread for no health concern developers and go from there.
An mask is hard to use at hot weather now and there is no mask for all chemicals.

Umut

Grainy · Jul 13, 2011

Don't mean to hijack the thread, but I have a similar question.

I have a makeshift darkroom in my bathroom, it's ventilated with a normal wall mounted bathroom fan. But I want to have a fan above the trays on my workbench to suck out the polluted air right away.

So I'm thinking about buying a used kitchen fan, clamp it to my workbench about 1 or 1,5 meter above it and connect the air outlet to the wall mounted bathroom fan with a ventilation hose/tube. The used kitchen fans are cheap, wide and with 230V plug&play. And maybe supply this with a air freshener with HEPA filter.

Does it sound like a good plan?

For example a fan similar to this http://cache.finn.no/mmo/2011/7/10/5/295/312/25_879810002.jpg

Bob-D659 · Jul 13, 2011

No reason the "inline" fans won't work. Not sure on what you want to do with a hepa filter on an exhaust fan, other that clean the air of particulates before blowing it out of the room.

Dan Daniel · Jul 13, 2011

If you already have an exhaust fan installed, why not just run a duct to the trays and pull the air using the existing fan? The total airflow out of the room is limited by the actual exhaust system, so you won't be increasing anything, just pushing air around.

A standard ventilation system for chemicals fumes involves a vent/intake on the opposite side of the chemicals from where the person stands. This pulls away the fumes and brings fresh air to where the person is standing. So a hose or ducting to the tray area from the exhaust fan makes sense.

jp80874 · Jul 13, 2011

Grainy,

If you are standing by the trays when the fan is sucking fumes from the trays straight up overhead, the fumes will go directly into your nose before they get to the fan. Not a good choice. That is why earlier I suggested duct work from the fan down to the opposite side of the trays from you. I use 4" PVC pipe for my duct work. You then want fresh air coming in behind you. I didn't see mention of input in your arrangement.

John Powers

Grainy · Jul 13, 2011

Bob: I didn't mean to put HEPA filter on the kitchen fan, but to have a normal air freshener with hepa filter standing in the room.

JP80874: My plan was to mount the fan just below cheast height.

I guess running a duct from the bathroom fan to the trays would work. (and maybe change the bathroom fan to a stronger one if I need). Should I then split the main pipe to 1 pipe for each tray or have some kind of wide end at the end of the pipe?

I don't have any input fan for fresh air, so I use to open the door a few minutes every 15 minutes to get some fresh air.

Gerald C Koch · Jul 13, 2011

Grainy said:
I have a makeshift darkroom in my bathroom, it's ventilated with a normal wall mounted bathroom fan. But I want to have a fan above the trays on my workbench to suck out the polluted air right away.

What "polluted air"? If you don't like the smell of stop bath then use an odorless one like citric acid. If the fixer also bothers you then use plain hypo.

Dan Daniel · Jul 13, 2011

So how do you expect to remove air if you don't have air coming in to replace it? You need an inlet of some sort. Put a light-tight louver in the door. Heck, punch a hole through to a closet, run a dryer to it and put a couple of bends in the hose for light baffling, and open the closet door when printing. You HAVE to have fresh air for this stuff to work. Depending on the age and construction of your building, leaks and gaps might not cut it. In Norway, I imagine that the exterior weatherproofing is pretty tight.

Look, people, it is work and money, but not a lot. As someone with chronic bronchitis from working in a poorly ventilated darkroom decades ago, please, don't do it. Much of this damage is cumulative.

Here's some industrial ventilation systems. Interesting to look over to see how they handle things. Think through how they are making the air flow and you can improve your ventilation pretty easily.
http://sentryairsystems.blogspot.com/p/product-spotlights.html

Woodworkers are also a good source of hoses, gates, fans, etc., and ideas. They usually collect inside the shop space, but it's not hard to move the exhaust outside.

Grainy · Jul 13, 2011

Gerald C Koch said:
What "polluted air"? If you don't like the smell of stop bath then use an odorless one like citric acid. If the fixer also bothers you then use plain hypo.

I love the smell, so the smell I don't care about, but I don't think it's healthy to breathe in the darkroom without good ventilation.

jp80874 · Jul 13, 2011

Grainy said:
JP80874: My plan was to mount the fan just below cheast height.

I guess running a duct from the bathroom fan to the trays would work. (and maybe change the bathroom fan to a stronger one if I need). Should I then split the main pipe to 1 pipe for each tray or have some kind of wide end at the end of the pipe?

I don't have any input fan for fresh air, so I use to open the door a few minutes every 15 minutes to get some fresh air.

I use an eight foot stainless sink and two exhaust fans. The ducting comes down from the ceiling to across the sink from me at about two and six foot marks on the sink. The 4" PVC have T endings so air essentially comes in from all eight feet of the sink.

As to no fresh air input and opening the door every fifteen minutes. I use a large pusher fan sucking through a high quality furnace filter. I believe your method brings dust into the room and an inadequate supply of air.

John

Grainy · Jul 13, 2011

Dan Daniel said:
So how do you expect to remove air if you don't have air coming in to replace it?

The door is not air tight, so even when it's closed air will still come into the room.

I don't know much about ventilation, but what is the point of having a fan in the bathroom if you mean it doesn't suck out air if the bathroom door is closed?

Grainy · Jul 13, 2011

Dan Daniel said:
Here's some industrial ventilation systems. Interesting to look over to see how they handle things. Think through how they are making the air flow and you can improve your ventilation pretty easily.
http://sentryairsystems.blogspot.com/p/product-spotlights.html

Maybe something like this could solve my problem? http://sentryairsystems.blogspot.com/2011/04/product-spotlight-stainless-steel.html

Dan Daniel · Jul 13, 2011

First, a fan to reduce humidity and to eliminate smells is not necessarily going to provide ventilation for chemicals. I always thought of bathrooms fan as working mainly when the door is open, and using the crack at the bottom of household doors when closed.

When I have used a bathroom as a darkroom, I had to seal the door- foam weatherstripping on the jambs and a towel at the bottom- to reduce the light leaks. If yours both doesn't leak light and allows sufficient air flow, that's great.

Well, we all have to find the balance between the 'ideal' of lab-grade ventilation and simply leaving the room with the door open every few minutes. A basic bathroom fan is certainly better than nothing. Take care of yourself, that's my major point, but what that means is up to each of us.

Diapositivo · Jul 13, 2011

Grainy said:
Don't mean to hijack the thread, but I have a similar question.

I have a makeshift darkroom in my bathroom, it's ventilated with a normal wall mounted bathroom fan. But I want to have a fan above the trays on my workbench to suck out the polluted air right away.

So I'm thinking about buying a used kitchen fan, clamp it to my workbench about 1 or 1,5 meter above it and connect the air outlet to the wall mounted bathroom fan with a ventilation hose/tube. The used kitchen fans are cheap, wide and with 230V plug&play. And maybe supply this with a air freshener with HEPA filter.

Does it sound like a good plan?

For example a fan similar to this http://cache.finn.no/mmo/2011/7/10/5/295/312/25_879810002.jpg

Those kind of kitchen fans are not suitable for duties for which they were not designed, as typically the instruction manual says.

That means that they can overheat if you let them on for hours continuously (I don't know how long would you let them on) or, who knows, that they can make a sparkle when you don't expect one (careful with that propane/butane mix ) and other sort of unexpected failure (maybe taking fire).

One of those kitchen fans failed on me quite brutally one day. It had a short, the house was suddenly in the dark, and the fan become burning (all the kitchen oil around it, that is). I couldn't reach the flame as it was behind the metallic grid and it was of the kind that needed a screwdriver to be removed. I could not launch water from down up as the grill stopped it. Needless to say, the entire kitchen stuff was inside wooden furniture. The fan exhaust into a natural chimney. I seriously feared a fire, picturing the scene in my mind: the chimney would keep the flame alive, the wooden kitchen could take fire and within a few minutes I would have some hundreds degree in the room.

I went to my neighbours and told them to call the fire brigade. Not prompt people, they didn't call the fire brigade. Two of them came with me, when we entered the house it was very smoky. I went inside the kitchen just in time to see the small flame extinguish itself for lack of oil.

My mother (when she used that kitchen, for many years) had removed the filter and tons of oil had accumulated inside the motor. She never used the fan anyway. But the oil vapours went to the fan anyway. I used it, instead.

I know it was not the kitchen fan fault, but since them I don't trust the contraction.

Fabrizio

Gerald C Koch · Jul 13, 2011

Grainy said:
I love the smell, so the smell I don't care about, but I don't think it's healthy to breathe in the darkroom without good ventilation.

All the more reason to use citric acid stop and plain hypo. I appreciate your concern. I have to be careful with anything that can release sulfur dioxide or ammonia as these can give me an asthma attack. So I can't use acid fixers or those that use ammonium thiosulfate.

afriges · Mar 4, 2012

jp80874 said:
I use an eight foot stainless sink and two exhaust fans. The ducting comes down from the ceiling to across the sink from me at about two and six foot marks on the sink. The 4" PVC have T endings so air essentially comes in from all eight feet of the sink.

As to no fresh air input and opening the door every fifteen minutes. I use a large pusher fan sucking through a high quality furnace filter. I believe your method brings dust into the room and an inadequate supply of air.

John

________________

I have to use a respirator for my artwork because I am elbow deep in Chemistry. When you feel like you can taste it in your mouth, you know it's bad.
I went with the 3M 5000 series vapor respirator ($18) half mask. This is for use in a variety of workplace applications, including petrochemical, chemical manufacturing, construction, transportation and electronics.

Whatever you choose - be sure to cover both your mouth and your nose - and the "taste" will go away like magic.

On another note - I saw John Powers from Bath, Ohio respond to this thread - COULD IT BE?? The SAME John Powers I went to the University of Akron with??!!
John - we need to reconnect! - we lost touch because I move around too much. It's good to see you on here & clearly you are still doing what you love to do

Darkroom respirators

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