Dark marks on the edge of negative - air bubbles?

Usagi · Dec 26, 2009

Hi,

recently I have had this kind of marks on some of my films.
I haven't yet tried to hunt out the reason but so far I am quite sure that mostly I have these when using Neopan 400 roll film developed in Pyrocat-HD.

Have tested with and without pre-wet. No difference.

My strongest suspects are either air bubbles or perhaps some remains of photo-flo or Tetenal Mirasol 2000 can cause these?

All films where I have seen these are developed with Pyrocat-HD 1:1:100 using partial standing method (first minute continuous agitation, then 3 inversions at each minute).

So before I waste precious film for systematic testing, I would like to hear if these marks look familiar to someone. It would save a lot of time and film.

Ian Grant · Dec 26, 2009

Yes air bells, unmistakeable.

I add 3 drops of wetting agent to my Pyrocat HD and that totally eliminates the problem which is a hard water issue usually. I've posted images of visual test I did in the past with no lid on my tanks and without the wetting agent there was no way I could get rid of the problem.

Ian

Usagi · Dec 26, 2009

That could explain it. I moved from the city I live now from the city where water was softer. Perhaps water here is just enough harder to cause these.

Thank you very much!

DanielStone · Dec 26, 2009

new baby in the family?

just out of curiosity, how do you like using pyrocat-hd for rollfilm?

I'm currently using TMY-2. but those marks look like airbells to me

-Dan

Usagi · Dec 27, 2009

Yes, new baby in the family

I like using pyrocat-HD for rollfilm really much. Still using Rodinal and XTOL for some films, but pyrocat-hd has become my main developer for rollfilms too (for sheet film's it has become already).

ic-racer · Dec 27, 2009

I used to get those 20 years ago. Seeing them again reminds me why I started rotary processing B&W 20 years ago.
Thanks for reminding me; as there was a recent thread where I read people telling someone not to use a Jobo for B&W.

Usagi · Dec 28, 2009

Ian, do you add those 3 drops to the work solution? I am trying to figure out what would be right amount. For example, about half cc per one liter?

Ian Grant · Dec 28, 2009

I add about 3 drops per litre, it's important not to add too mush as that canl cause foaming.

A suggestion fill you dev tank with water add the spirals etc (no film) observe the air bells, then add just enough wetting agent to cut the surface tension, which releases the bubbles. I did that then also with some developer as I wanted to solve the problem once & for-all.

It's a problem that is more likely to happen with home brew devs with no sequestering/water softening agents, commercial devs usually have additives to help prevent thse problems. I'd never had a problem until I moved to Turkey but the water has a very jigh mineral content with a lot of calcium.

Ian

Usagi · Dec 30, 2009

Thanks!

fschifano · Dec 31, 2009

Looks to me like you could have used just a little more developer in the tank, and the problem would not have appeared. Bubbles like this form at the top of the fluid column and can get stuck to the spirals of the reel. If the reel were just a little more deeply submerged, the bubbles wouldn't stick there.

Usagi · Dec 31, 2009

fschifano said:
Looks to me like you could have used just a little more developer in the tank, and the problem would not have appeared. Bubbles like this form at the top of the fluid column and can get stuck to the spirals of the reel. If the reel were just a little more deeply submerged, the bubbles wouldn't stick there.

That's what I thought when I encountered the problem first time.
Since that, I have used additional 100ml per film (my Paterson tank says that 500ml is enough for one 120 roll but I use 600ml).
It didn't help. These marks are also on the films that are developed with bigger tank where only one film could have problem of not being deep enough in the developer.

Strangely the XTOL which I use too does not have any problems, so it's only the Pyrocat-HD (glycol based I suppose).

It seems that tap water can add a lot of unpredictable things to the film processing.
In my previous house, I had no problem.
The house before that (within same city), I had a lot of pin hole problems. Especially with D76 and Xtol with Delta-films. Never found any good solution.

And now at the different city - came the problem with pyrocat-HD :rolleyes:

The distilled water is too expensive for all developers, but perhaps I should boil something like 10 liter of water and keep always boiled water stored ready for use.

fschifano · Dec 31, 2009

How about agitation, especially during the first 30 seconds to 1 minute of development? Maybe not vigorous enough to dislodge the bubbles? I really don't think it's a water problem, but keeping some boiled water might help.

Ian Grant · Jan 1, 2010

My visual tests showed that even vigorous agitation left air-bubbles, one problem with over-doing the agitation is perversely it actually adds more.

Agfa did a lot of work on these problems in the 1930's and Patented a specific wetting agent, which gave minimal foaming, the issue is well over a 100 years old as Agfa mention ways to minimise the problems in a 1910 Handbook.

Commercial developers contain sequestering agents, sometimes EDTA or Sodium Tri-polyphosphate (old type Calgon) and a few also contain long chain wetting agents in very small quantities, and this is why problems are more like to arise when you mix your own developers from raw chemicals.

In my own case it's really only the water hear locally in Turkey that causes problems, and like Jukka that just happens to be with Pyrocat HD but it would happen with other formula as well.

Ian.

Ian

Janos · Jan 1, 2010

ic-racer said:
I used to get those 20 years ago. Seeing them again reminds me why I started rotary processing B&W 20 years ago.
Thanks for reminding me; as there was a recent thread where I read people telling someone not to use a Jobo for B&W.

The problem that I found with rotary (continuous) processing for B&W film, is that with no standing time, the edge definition doesn't build up. Not really a handicap, but it's one of the nice enhancements of this kind of photography.

Janos · Jan 1, 2010

Usagi said:
That's what I thought when I encountered the problem first time.
Since that, I have used additional 100ml per film (my Paterson tank says that 500ml is enough for one 120 roll but I use 600ml).
It didn't help. These marks are also on the films that are developed with bigger tank where only one film could have problem of not being deep enough in the developer.

Strangely the XTOL which I use too does not have any problems, so it's only the Pyrocat-HD (glycol based I suppose).

It seems that tap water can add a lot of unpredictable things to the film processing.
In my previous house, I had no problem.
The house before that (within same city), I had a lot of pin hole problems. Especially with D76 and Xtol with Delta-films. Never found any good solution.

And now at the different city - came the problem with pyrocat-HD :rolleyes:

The distilled water is too expensive for all developers, but perhaps I should boil something like 10 liter of water and keep always boiled water stored ready for use.

Apart from these very good suggestions, I assume that you always give the tank a sharp rap on a hard surface immediately after adding developer? I'm sure you must be, as I've always assumed that this is standard practice. Generally guaranteed to dislodge all air bubbles, which seem to be more of a problem with plastic reels than stainless steel ones.

Andrew Moxom · Jan 1, 2010

I switched from Paterson tanks to metal tanks and reels and the problems went away completely. Add to that I actually agitate less now in an attempt to stop bubbles forming in the first place. As others have recommended, using wetting agent to your tanks might clear up symptoms. However, it is not always recommended as this can build up on the edges of the reels causing problems later down the line. Especially if you do not regularly clean your reels with super hot water and bleach! Tell me how I know this!!...

Usagi · Jan 2, 2010

Janos, yes I give sharp rap to a tank. Actually when I have poured the developer in the tank, I rap it three times and then begun the initial agitation of one minute, then rap again three times.

From that point, I rap once after each agitation sequence.

The air bubbles has never been problem before moving to new city. And at here, they occur only with Pyrocat-HD.

Sirius Glass · Jan 2, 2010

Get a block of hard rubber from an arts store and thump the tank on it. It will convey the shock without denting a metal tank or cracking a plastic tank.

Steve

erikg · Jan 2, 2010

Isn't it funny the problems some of us run into when others who are doing the same process do not? Maybe not funny in the ha ha sense. I had this issue years ago with stainless reels and I took the suggestion of adding some wetting agent to the developer. Three drops just like Ian says, the problem went away and has never returned. Was it the wetting agent? Maybe, and Ian's tests do seem to show a connection, but sometimes it seems to me that there is a certain amount of magical thinking involved. Even so I keep using the three drops. I've been using the same tanks and reels for something like 28 years and I've never had an issue that with wetting agent residue even though that is my last step before the film comes off the reel and into the drying cabinet. Nevertheless I'm sure the problem exists. Just all part of the fun and a little reminder that we are not so in control as we might like to think.

xisbrat · Jan 25, 2010

Same bubble symptoms -- dark spots on edge of image

Very timely thread!
I just experienced the bubble symptoms when I recently started using a larger 1-liter ss tank (2 120 reels + 1 35mm reel for "filler reel"). I shoot Acros and use Rodinal 1:100 stand development, in which I try to be gentle in my agitation. I rap the tank firmly on a wood board after each inversion set. I guess I was either too gentle, or didn't wrap it hard enough. I also filled the tank near to the top, which may not have left enough room for the agitation motion to be effective. Soooo many variables!! This is my first use of the larger tank; using a smaller tank had no problems.

I'll adjust my process, and try the wetting solution if necessary.

Thanks. Here's a shot of the bubbles on the right edge.

Usagi · Jan 26, 2010

My problem with bubbles is now gone
By testing with only reel in the tank filled with water (Paterson 4, 500ml). I quickly noted that about 0.5ml of photoflo was enough for removing a lot of bubbles from the reel.

As the 0.5ml per 500ml feeled a bit too much (1:1000 when photoflo's normal usage on final rinse is 1:600), I did test with two 120 films and one liter with 0.5ml photoflo added (1:2000).
Both films came out without any traces of bubbles.

Have used since when developing Neopan 400 films. I haven't encountered any problems so this seems to be really good advice!
Thanks to Ian!

Dark marks on the edge of negative - air bubbles?

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