dark lines on edges of 4x5...GRRR! Help!

JeffD · Aug 7, 2007

Can someone help me out with the dark areas on the long sides of this 4x5 "print"? The negative has a light area on the long edge on either side, and I can't figure out why. I am pretty sure this is before processing. I am using Lisco type film holders, and this happened on images from different holders, which I've never had trouble with before. It seems to be the opposite of a light leak problem. I am developing in a Nikkor reel (see attached .jpg) using Rodinal 1:50 for about 7.25 minutes @ 68 degrees. The edgest of the reel don't seem to be causing this. It might make sense if it were one side of the negative and I was "stand" processing, but I agitate 30 seconds initially, and 5 seconds every 30 seconds thereafter. These were take in a Ebony field camera, again, never any problem before. I just can't think of anything that would cause this! Surely someone can solve the mystery!

JeffD · Aug 7, 2007

ok, I solved my own problem. I think. It seems to make sense.

I think on this batch of negatives, I accidentally put 1 liter of developer in the tank. It is supposed to hold 1.2 liters. After each agitation, I would flip the tank, and rest on the table, and the top edge of the negative was not fully immersed, and, therefor, didn't get processed fully.

I would delete my original post, so as not to reveal my stupidity, but I think I'll leave it, in case anyone else can learn from it.

Too bad. This image is actually sharper than this hastily scanned and downsampled .jpg reveals. Could have been a keeper. As it stands, I'd have to crop more away than I'm willing to.

vanspaendonck · Aug 7, 2007

The manual for the Nikor 4x5 tank specifies 36 onces (liquid, US) for 4x5 sheets, which is 1065 cc's with a safety margin. 1 litre of developer should have just covered your negatives. Your negative has a dark border on the top AND on the bottom. If you had used too little developer, you would only have an underdeveloped band at the top.
I am afraid you will have to look a little further for the cause.

JeffD · Aug 7, 2007

not exactly.

I agitate 5 seconds each 30 seconds of development. When I rest the tank on the counter, I rotate from resting upside down, and right side up. I tried to explain this in my second post.

I tried putting one liter of solution in, and dropping in the reel. It does appear to leave the edge of the film just above the solution.

The reason there is any develpment at all is the agitation each 30 seconds, and the alternating between resting upside down and right side up.

Nick Zentena · Aug 7, 2007

Bellows? Lenshood? Some thing blocking the light but not totally.

I don't think that's a developer issue. I can't tell how that reel holds the film but wouldn't the top and bottom be the short end of the film? Not the long side with the issue.

JeffD · Aug 7, 2007

Negatives slide in the grooves of the reel, with the "long side" of the negative on the top and bottom.

sly · Aug 7, 2007

I'll go with your "not enough developer" theory. I had some negatives that looked very similar - with underdeveloped area on only one edge of negative - a few weeks ago.
I've never seen a reel like that before. Where'd it come from? How many sheets can it take at one time? I'm assuming it would fit in the tanks I already own for 35mm and 120 developing. I need 1.5 liters of developer to develop 12 sheets in the tank I currently use. I suspect your system might conserve developer. Sly

Jim Noel · Aug 7, 2007

Do you use KOdak Photo Flo with the negatives still in the reel?
If so, the Photo Flo is on the reels and acting as a catalyst to the developer. In order to remove it you need to physically scrub the reels well with very hot water and a tooth brush.

I have seen this happen occasionally on the reels at the college and have found no other explanation. We attempted to keep reels out of Photo Flo and have now switched to another wetting agent.

Shawn Dougherty · Aug 7, 2007

I'm dealing with a very similar looking problem right now. It only happens on sunny days. The fact that the strips run the entire length of the negative on both sides pretty much rules out a lack of developer. (I use a simple homemade ABS tube and nearly fill it with developer so it's definitely not the cause of my problem. This looks like a slight light leak around the edges of the holder. If you have felt or some sort of seal on the camera back I would look into that. I'll post my findings when I finally get it figured out. Best of luck. Shawn

EDIT: Oh my, I was looking at the scan thinking in terms of a negative... This would be the opposite of the effects of a light leak at the edges of the filmholder and the opposite of my problem. Forgive me. Shawn

Bob Carnie · Aug 7, 2007

I agree with both of you on this one.
I think it is a great idea to post the image , even though you have solved the problem. This is a perfect example of inadeqate development on film.

sly said:
I'll go with your "not enough developer" theory. I had some negatives that looked very similar - with underdeveloped area on only one edge of negative - a few weeks ago.
I've never seen a reel like that before. Where'd it come from? How many sheets can it take at one time? I'm assuming it would fit in the tanks I already own for 35mm and 120 developing. I need 1.5 liters of developer to develop 12 sheets in the tank I currently use. I suspect your system might conserve developer. Sly

DannL · Aug 7, 2007

I would say "under developed" at the edges. Not enough developer circulation is my guess. I had similar trouble once with a Yankee Master tank, 120 film, and stand development. I gave up doing stand development with that tank. More agitation eliminated the underdeveloped edges. I use the Unicolor 8x10 drum and motor base for 4x5 and 8x10 negatives. Works like a breeze IMHO for simple straightforward development.

Bob F. · Aug 7, 2007

I had the same effect this weekend when doing some semi-stand developing with some roll film for the 1st time.

Cause in my case was indeed insufficient developer.

Cheers, Bob.

JeffD · Aug 7, 2007

Bob F. said:
I had the same effect this weekend when doing some semi-stand developing with some roll film for the 1st time.

Cause in my case was indeed insufficient developer.

Cheers, Bob.

Hey, your cow looks like my desert! Only difference is I got underdeveloped on both ends, as I switch off resting the tank either right-side up, or upside-down.

Sly asked about this tank- It is a 12 4x5 sheet tank that loads by sliding film inward along spiral grove tracks. I think the tank is ingenious, and, with some practice delivers great results. The tank looks like similar tanks that people use for 35mm and 120, but it is much fatter, and, I don't think this reel would fit in those tanks.

Some people hate them, but I think they have not figured out how to use them. When used properly, they should provide perfect development (emphasis on the words "used properly"). I have used the Jobo 3010 expert drums on a uniroller base (works good, but you have to account for constant agitation), and have also used the combi-plan tank (I stepped on it, and the cheap plastic device broke into bits), and like this Nikkor reel the best so far. You can find them on ebay from time to time, but they are a bit pricey.

Bob F. · Aug 7, 2007

JeffD said:
Hey, your cow looks like my desert! Only difference is I got underdeveloped on both ends, as I switch off resting the tank either right-side up, or upside-down.

Yup. Reason I know for sure it was too little developer in my case is that I realised it when I opened the tank lid and poured in the final soak of deionized water and saw it was a bit shallow... I processed more film immediately afterwards in the same tank & reels but with more developer in and those came out fine. My tank (Jobo) wouldn't be at all happy being left upside down!

Cheers, Bob.

highpeak · Aug 8, 2007

I had the same problem before using Jobo multitank 2523. I use it as a juiced-up 35mm tank (means no rotary process). It can holds six sheets of 4X5 film. I got a dark edge because of the developer is not enough to cover the edge of the film.

Jeff, you are right, if used properly, the outcome can be very satisfying!

Alex W.

Mike Té · Aug 8, 2007

Thanks for posting this, Jeff; very useful example.

Steve Smith · Aug 8, 2007

I have also had this with 120 film and not enough developer. I recently threw out my cheep real and replaced it with a Jobo one I had in the cupboard. I did not realise that the reel stood a little bit higher in the tank and used the same 600cc of developer which I always use. I now need 700cc!

Steve.

vanspaendonck · Aug 8, 2007

JeffD said:
not exactly.

I agitate 5 seconds each 30 seconds of development. When I rest the tank on the counter, I rotate from resting upside down, and right side up. I tried to explain this in my second post.

I tried putting one liter of solution in, and dropping in the reel. It does appear to leave the edge of the film just above the solution.

The reason there is any develpment at all is the agitation each 30 seconds, and the alternating between resting upside down and right side up.

To be sure I just measured how much liquid a Nikor 4x5 tank contains when the sheets are just covered, by filling the tank with water untill the top guide rails were fully immersed and then emptying the tank in a calibrated beker (or is it beaker?). It came out just above the 1000 mark, so with a few drops left in the tank I still think that 36 Ounces/ 1065 cc, as the manual says, is correct.
I still wonder if 65 cc's less has caused this banding.

BTW, I noticed that the banding is uneven and not horizontal. Could that be a clue? I wonder if the edges of your negs somehow got slightly pre-exposed at some stage between the box and the tank.

It would be nice if we could solve this, because some day it's gonna happen to me too.

JeffD · Aug 8, 2007

vanspaendonck said:
To be sure I just measured how much liquid a Nikor 4x5 tank contains when the sheets are just covered, by filling the tank with water untill the top guide rails were fully immersed and then emptying the tank in a calibrated beker (or is it beaker?). It came out just above the 1000 mark, so with a few drops left in the tank I still think that 36 Ounces/ 1065 cc, as the manual says, is correct.
I still wonder if 65 cc's less has caused this banding.

BTW, I noticed that the banding is uneven and not horizontal. Could that be a clue? I wonder if the edges of your negs somehow got slightly pre-exposed at some stage between the box and the tank.

It would be nice if we could solve this, because some day it's gonna happen to me too.

Yes, I did the same thing you did! It was hard to tell where the solution "just covers the film", but to fill it to the extent that the entire top plate was submersed seemed to be probably about the amount you mentioned, maybe just a bit more. I think I am going to ensure at least 1100ML of solution from now on.

Who knows, maybe I compounded my problem by putting in just slightly less than a liter of solution, but I don't think I was that sloppy.

As to the possibility that the negs got pre-exposed, that is what I initially thought, until I realized that this would have "darkened" the processed negative in those areas, and led to "lighter" shade bands in the final positive image. Just the opposite of what happened to me.

Alex Bishop-Thorpe · Aug 9, 2007

I had a similar problem with a Yankee Agitank, my first time using it. 55 fluid ounces divided by two is 22.5 fluid ounces, right?
Yeah, I calculated it wrong and ended up with too little developer. But a minute into it I realised my mistake, grabbed some developer, poured in some hot water to heat it up and poured it in - so now the dilution had changed and it was now at 38 degrees (c) - I guessed a new time and the negatives came out, but still with a distinctive band of uneven development along one edge.

Darkroom Shenanigans, always fun.

dark lines on edges of 4x5...GRRR! Help!

JeffD

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