Damn you Ape Huggers and your "Size Matters" cliques...

Here I was, about two years ago, amusingly deriding APS-sized sensor users over the ludicrously small sensitive area in their cameras. You see, I could explain to them how much more information I could record on my 6x6 film frame... shallow DOF was impossible for them, and they had no idea what a smooth tonal transition looked like.

Very quickly, I realized that if challenged, I could claim the 4x5" of my TechPan film was approaching GigaPixel sizes...

And then, I found this "home". Seeing avatars of Vikings single-handedly hand-holding banquet cameras should have warned me I suppose with hindsight... The signature "Amazing how small 4x5" can look" might have clued me in too. The fact is, where the owner of the site uses the Deardorff logo as his avatar, anything below 8x10" and one is going to be riled in the locker room showers here.

Fast forward to present-day ApeHugging, and I'm aware of the infection I picked up. To paraphrase Robert Capa's famous "If your photos aren't good, you're not close enough." as applicable to here...

If you need a loupe to view your negative on the light table, your film ain't big enough!

So moral of the story... I'm infected with the wunderlust of ULF. I walk past some of Jorge's contact prints on my wall everytime I go grab a beer out of the fridge (so about 18 times a day)... And then I look at my incredibly inadequate 6x6 neg on Technical Pan on the light box and think, "I can't resolve that fly's pubic hair under my 20x loupe." and the rest is history.

So to finally get to the point... I have a darkroom far far away which I get to visit every couple of months. There is NO way I can fit an enlarger in my home... but! I could conceivably do contact prints with a few trays in my bathroom without risking immediate divorce (God I hope she's not reading over my shoulder right now...). And THAT is enough convincing I need to start looking around at 8x10 folding field cameras.

Naturally, that Ebony SV810U is gorgeous. But then again, so is a Patek Philippe 5004 Quantième Perpetuel split-time chronograph... What I do see however, are Deardorffs and Tachihara - judging by current auctions on Ebay.

So... dear ULFers I ask you this: do not try to discourage my impetuous ambitions here by talking about the silver bullets in life. Do not try to hammer in reason into my small brain - many have tried before. I know I do not know enough, but I also know I will explore this route. So I'm thinking damage control - avoiding buying the Betamax of cameras. Would something like this:
Tachihara be interesting...

or rather something like this
Deardorff be better?

Either one will do great by you -- I'd go for the Tachihara and spend the extra money on a lens (or two!) and plenty of film. Deardorff is great, but not a thousand dollars greater.

Remember that you have to feed the camera once you buy it. The Tachi (not Tacky!) is about half the price of the Dorff. That extra grand will get you at least two lenses, or a lens and all the film holders you need. You can sell whichever one you buy for about what you paid for it if you get it and find that after using it it isn't your cup of tea. In all likelihood, whichever one you buy will not be your last 8x10. Get whichever one is most inside your budget, and play with it some. Also, since you don't have room for a real darkroom, look into the alt-processes that become viable with the big negatives, like Pt/Pd, Kallitype, VDB, etc.. They require less fumes and less chems in many cases, and are easier to clean up.

8x10 isn't ULF. It's just normal -)

Instead of the Tach etc why not one of these?

Dead Link Removed

BTW this is an Ape

http://www.it.vtl.piaggio.com/cross.htm

A real ULF should fit in the back

I'm perfectly happy with my 4x5; for me it provides the most flexibility without the exorbitant costs associated with ULF. I've never given any serious thought to going bigger. Nothing wrong with being satisfied with what you have.

Anybody think you can mount a tripod head on top of that ape? Might make ULF portable -)

Yes, this is an infectious condition, which properly treated can only be "handled" by going to at least an 8x10 format and possibly an 11x14 or larger.

As to my personal preference between the two 8x10s (tachihara or deardorff), noting I have no affiliation to either seller, I believe the tachihara is almost as sturdy as the deardorff. This is based on my using the 4x5 tachihara, which I truly love for its convenience, but the deardorff, especially one refurbished by the man himself does have quite the allure. I own 2 Deardorff V8s, one being used and one to be restored.

Bottom line, IMO, is the allure of a fantastic Deardorff V8 worth the extra money over the 8x10 Tachihara. I don't think either view camera will lose appreciable value with your use, but of the two, the Tachihara will not hold the value the Deardorff V8 will maintain. Thus, my friend, the subjective question of the cost outlay differences can only be answered by you.

Good luck and long live film!

Niko..I have NO Idea what you are talking about

However, if it were me think I would go with the Tachi, as suggested, and add good glass and lots of film. BTW - have I mentioned that 8x10 is starting to look like medium format

photomc said:

However, if it were me think I would go with the Tachi, as suggested, and add good glass and lots of film. BTW - have I mentioned that 8x10 is starting to look like medium format

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Really!! I would be more than happy to place one of my 30x40 inch prints, made with my 4x5, next to your 8x10 contact prints.

roteague said:

I'm perfectly happy with my 4x5; for me it provides the most flexibility without the exorbitant costs associated with ULF. I've never given any serious thought to going bigger. Nothing wrong with being satisfied with what you have.

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Well said! I have nothing but respect for ULF users, but for me, the 4x5 does what I want and I'm quite happy with it. By all means, try larger if you have a good reason to, but don't switch just for the sake of switching. It's never a bad idea to have a specific reason to change the way you do things and likewise, it's never a bad idea to stay with what you have if you don't have a specific reason to change the way you do things.

- Randy

photomc said:

Niko..I have NO Idea what you are talking about

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Suuuuuure you don't! By the way, I'm sending the shipping bill to you as you're not innocent in this downfalling.

roteague said:

I'm perfectly happy with my 4x5 {snip} Nothing wrong with being satisfied with what you have.

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I was perfectly happy with my 5x4 when I was shooting trannies. But when I moved to B&W I found a different set of desires. I discovered that I don't find printing with an enlarger very satisfying, but that I really enjoy contact printing. 5x4 contact prints are very nice but very small. So I had to move to 10x8 to get the size prints I want to do. So sometimes size does matter. That being said, I can't imagine that I'll ever get a larger format camera.

4x5 RULES!!!

I can carry mine in the bush all day, or stuff it into a pack and go for a hike in the mountains for 3 days, or stick it in a Pelican case for 6 months of sea kayaking, or use it in the pouring rain, or in snow storms. ULF may give better detail, but I bet my not so dainty 4x5 sees wilder scenes than most ULF cameras.

Hee hee heeeee

Murray

Get the Deardorff if you are going to shoot it forever.

The Tachihara if you just going fool around.

.

NikoSperi said:

... anything below 8x10" and one is going to be riled in the locker room showers here. ...

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Niko:

I feel your pain.

Not only do I read the glories of LF every day, but I am active in a photo project with 4 other apuggers who all use sheet film: 4x5, 5x7, 8x10, 7x17 ...

... and me with 35mm and 6x6.

They are referred to as my "toy cameras". But the others humor me.

Thing is, I'm out on a shoot with 1 (or more) of the brothers, and they get off 2 exposures, while I shoot 2 rolls! I figure that, eventually, the monkeys will type the works of Shakespeare and I'll get some good negatives. :rolleyes:

But hey, I'm thinking of moving up from 6x6 to 6x7!

Ciao!

David

Lee has refered to my 35mm and 645's as "toy" format, which I won't let him forget but he and Matt have me looking at 5X7s now. Does it ever end?

bohica said:

Lee has refered to my 35mm and 645's as "toy" format, which I won't let him forget but he and Matt have me looking at 5X7s now. Does it ever end?

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It never ends. It's like getting Malaria - once gotten, never truly cured. Just wait until you start doing thins like alternative processes that require contact printing and long exposures with UV light. Then you'll be saying, "how small 8x10 looks today!"

David Brown said:

Niko:

I feel your pain.

Not only do I read the glories of LF every day, but I am active in a photo project with 4 other apuggers who all use sheet film: 4x5, 5x7, 8x10, 7x17 ...

... and me with 35mm and 6x6.

They are referred to as my "toy cameras". But the others humor me.

Thing is, I'm out on a shoot with 1 (or more) of the brothers, and they get off 2 exposures, while I shoot 2 rolls! I figure that, eventually, the monkeys will type the works of Shakespeare and I'll get some good negatives. :rolleyes:

But hey, I'm thinking of moving up from 6x6 to 6x7!

Ciao!

David

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Don't forget 3"x4"

Hmmm.... interesting. That Tachihara just ended selling for nearly what it costs new at Adorama ($20 and a few lens boards). Why? Why would that be right?...

Sanity and Ebay are often mutually exclusive.

One should exercize some degree of caution when attempting to hug apes.



If you want to do 8x10 contact prints, go for it. The first look at that big GG is wonderful, even if you're accustomed to a 4x5. Even though I drooled for a 'Dorff, I was taken by the Tachi. When I bought my double-extension Tachi new, it was $500-$1,000 less than used 'Dorffs that needed repair. I've since made a 4x5 reducing back for it, so I have the best of both when I need it. That said, the 4x5 Toyo field still sees a lot of use, though.

I would suggest, however, giving serious thought to whether 8x10 is the size you want for contact prints. You might actually prefer something slightly larger.

rbarker said:

I would suggest, however, giving serious thought to whether 8x10 is the size you want for contact prints. You might actually prefer something slightly larger.

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Now don't YOU START Mr. Barker! I haven't even gotten close to bidding and already you'd play my insecurity until I'm shooting 600 sq inch negatives.

NikoSperi said:

Naturally, that Ebony SV810U is gorgeous. But then again, so is a Patek Philippe 5004 Quantième Perpetuel split-time chronograph...

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With the watch, you can hike as far as your stumps will take you. I'd rather be where I find the photographs than have to find the photographs where I have to be. I LOVE!! my 4x5.

4x5 is perfect as it is the largest format I have an enlarger for
5x7 is perfect for intimate contact prints. I don't even have to use a loupe for focusing.
7x17 becomes reality as my repromaster 213 arrived today. Speaking of wide angle ;-)

Anything smaller (exept 6x6cm MF) is a pain for dust and scratches on the negative.
I like doing photography but APUG is 100% responsable for my drift towards the large negatives.

G

"I would suggest, however, giving serious thought to whether 8x10 is the size you want for contact prints. You might actually prefer something slightly larger."

Too true!! I find my favorite format for contacts is 11x14 and much preferred over 8x10 so I well agree with the above!! 8x10 does look great as a contact print but I found I wanted for just a little more and 11x14 is perfect (for me!) for contact prints--I couldn't ask for more !! So I really love my Deardorff 8x10 and the negatives it produces but those 11x14 contact prints just leave me in awe !! So for contact prints why stop at 8x10 ?? Ahhh !! Decisions !! Decisions !!