D76/!D-11 storage question.

chiller · Nov 29, 2005

Does anyone have any idea if D76/ID-11 will keep for any period of time in tight full bottle.

I process inividual sheets with a small amount of chemistry but have many small bottles [100ml/ about 3 oz] that I can decant the developer into for storage.

That way I reduce the risk of oxidation on a larger volume of developer.

Any thoughts from practical experience?

Flotsam · Nov 29, 2005

I can't offer anything specific but I like D-76 for some things but don't use it very often. I divide the powder into four portions using a scale, vacuum pack it with on of those food storage vac-baggers and mix it a quart at a time.
I have to say that in many years, I have never noticed any problems with D-76 either in partially filled jug storage or in replenished sink lines.

Mick Fagan · Nov 29, 2005

Something to think about is the possibility of heating and/or freezing during extremes.

I, some summers ago, did exactly what you envisage doing. I store my stuff in the darkroom which is a bungalow. The temperature got up to 56ºC during a heat wave and two winters ago, one night it got down to -2ºC.

I had some D76 stored in 1 litre bottles and some stored in 250ml bottles. A couple of the small botles partially froze and the dev went off, the larger bottles were perfect. I presumed the larger stuff took a while longer to freeze and/or heat up.

I regularly keep D76 for up to 1 month in fully stoppered glass bottles using marbles to get rid of air.

Mick.

Bob F. · Nov 29, 2005

I have used 14 month old ID-11 stock with no noticeable difference from fresh. Was still the not-quite-clear colour after 14 months. Kept it in a fizzy pop bottle filled to the brim in my darkroom cupboard. IIRC, Ilford recommend six months in full bottles.

Cheers, Bob.

gnashings · Nov 29, 2005

I know this is probably far from the ideal solution, but I have been using plastic spring water bottles for my chemicals. I have many sizes, so I can usually pick one that is close to what I require. Afterwards, I squeeze the bottle to force the liquid right to the top and cap them. Word of caution - clear liquid chems in bottles labelled "Evian" make me very uncomfortable, so I make sure to label them clearly with thick black marker. Also, I know that for some things dark bottles are better, so I try to store them where light will not be an issue.
In such conditions, my current stock of D76 has been stored in .5L has shown no ill effect after nearly three months and counting.

chiller · Nov 29, 2005

My other option is a cask wine bladder that collapses as the developer is removed.

Pity I couldn't get a nice Chimay in a 5 litre cask.

srs5694 · Nov 29, 2005

IIRC, Kodak says that its D-76 will keep for up to six months in tightly sealed bottles. Kodak tends to be conservative about such things, and I've seen claims (like Bob's) of longer storage life. I don't know if ID-11 or home-made D-76 would last as long.

Splitting the solution across multiple bottles is a good way to keep it from going bad. Personally, I prefer glass bottles. If you use plastic, you might want to read this Web page on the topic. To sum it up: PET/PETE and PVC are the best types of plastic for storing developers. Most soft drinks are stored in PET/PETE (recycling symbol #1). Avoid HDPE and LDPE (recycling symbols #2 and #4; milk jugs are #2 plastic).

fschifano · Nov 29, 2005

You should get at least 6 months in a completely full and tightly stoppered bottle. My experience with both D-76, ID-11, and XTOL confirms this to be true. I always mix up the gallon or 5L according to directions and then fill an appropriate number of 1L bottles. Smaller bottles would be nice, but then storage space becomes an issue. So far everything has been working so I must be doing something right.

srs5694 · Nov 29, 2005

fschifano said:
I always mix up the gallon or 5L according to directions and then fill an appropriate number of 1L bottles. Smaller bottles would be nice, but then storage space becomes an issue.

One possibility is to use a mixture of sizes. For instance, with 5 liters of solution, put it in four 1l bottles and four 250ml bottles. When you've used all the 250ml bottles, open one of the 1l bottles and shift its contents to the four 250ml bottles. Repeat until it's all gone.

Of course, there's also the traditional approach of using marbles to fill up the part of a bottle that'd otherwise be occupied by air.

Ondrej1 · Nov 30, 2005

10 months in full PET bottle without visible change (ID-11)

John Bragg · Nov 30, 2005

chiller said:
Does anyone have any idea if D76/ID-11 will keep for any period of time in tight full bottle.

I process inividual sheets with a small amount of chemistry but have many small bottles [100ml/ about 3 oz] that I can decant the developer into for storage.

That way I reduce the risk of oxidation on a larger volume of developer.

Any thoughts from practical experience?

Hi chiller, you didn,t say if you use your dev as one shot, or re use it extending dev time. one shot is better for keeping it fresh, and as long as you keep air out, the stuff safely keeps six months no worries. Although I now use other developer, ID-11 was my choice for a long time and I had no complaints. (a good rule is to dump it if discoloured as oxidation has occured though)

chiller · Nov 30, 2005

Stock solution John

Ronald Moravec · Nov 30, 2005

I have tested D76 to 6 months in full well sealed bottles with no change. A very experienced worker I know used to keep it for a year. I have found increased activity in a week with a partial full sealed bottle, about 1/2 grade, then then it dies quickly so results are unprdictable.

I decant D76 to small one time use bottles as soon a it cools and never have trouble.
Glass bottles are best as they clean easily and you can see if they are clean. Some plastics are oxygen permiable and will cause problems, the collapsible accordian ones among them. It seems acceptable to store in quart bottles and then place in smaller ones when first opening the quart/liter.

StigHagen · Mar 29, 2011

I know this is an old post. John Sexton has said the following: "If the developer has been stored for more than 3 weeks after mixing from powder I discard it. As D-76 ages, a new chemical compound, hydroquinone monosulfonate, is formed that produces much higher contrast, especially on T-Max films."
http://www.jobo.com/jobo_service_analog/jq/jq9403.htm

I'm confused, is that really true?

Usagi · Mar 29, 2011

yes, d-76 will give a slightly more contrast when it ages, but that's not a big difference.

There is a good comparison with various d-76 versions and xtol about their longevity and changes during time.

I don't have link now but it should be easy to find with google.

Usagi · Mar 29, 2011

Here's the link to the longevity test: http://www.udmercy.edu/crna/agm/phenvitc.htm

Actually, after re-reading whole article, it seems that result is opposite to usually quoted results of D-76 getting more contrast during aging.

This curve is quoted from the article above, and if I read it correctly, the 14 week curve has lower contrast than initial curve:

Gerald C Koch · Mar 29, 2011

Flotsam said:
I can't offer anything specific but I like D-76 for some things but don't use it very often. I divide the powder into four portions using a scale, vacuum pack it with on of those food storage vac-baggers and mix it a quart at a time.
I have to say that in many years, I have never noticed any problems with D-76 either in partially filled jug storage or in replenished sink lines.

It seems that you have been lucky. However, the standard advice is not to divide powder mixtures due to uneven settling of the constituents.

Pgeobc · Mar 29, 2011

I have been wondering about this and it occurred to me that one might use distilled or deionized water and then replace the air in the bottle with an inert gas--maybe nitrogen or one of the cheaper welding gases like Argon or Argon/CO2. Refrigeration should help, too, assuming one has the spare frig capacity.

tkamiya · Mar 29, 2011

I keep my developer chemicals in one 1/2 gallon tank, and rest divided into 250cc bottles - all full. When little bottles are all empty, divide the 1/2 gallon into 250cc bottles - all full again. They are all kept in darkroom in normal room temperature.

I've been having good luck with this method. They last at least 6 months. I had XTOL stored this way and it lasted 8 months and I ran out. I'm doing the same with D76 and DEKTOL as well.

Aside from this method good air free keeping environment, one bottle per shot is very convenient.

Usagi · Mar 29, 2011

I use 500cc plastic soda or mineral water bottles. They are air tight (at least they keep carbon acid) and size is good to my usage.
Sometimes I have partially used bottle of stock for two or even three weeks and then I use it without any problems. If I know that I will use more developer, I mix the possible oxidized developer from partially used bottle with fresh stock from full bottle.

So far I think that variations caused by possible oxidation or exhaustion of couple of month stored stock developer are smaller than variations caused by other reasons like water hardness (if I am not using distilled water), variations of my lenses shutter speeds, reciprocity, perhaps variations of developing temperature (I use water bath for cooling developer down to 20 degree celsius) etc...

Althought I do some calibration for process, I am accept somewhat wide tolerances in the consistency of my work.
As long as my N developing is at least within N-½ ... N+½, it is really fine

fschifano · Mar 29, 2011

Pgeobc said:
...maybe nitrogen or one of the cheaper welding gases like Argon or Argon/CO2. Refrigeration should help, too, assuming one has the spare frig capacity.

Nitrogen or argon would be OK, but I'd avoid CO2. CO2+water gives carbolic acid. You don't want that in your developer. Ever notice how seltzer water (plain carbonated water) is acidic? BTW, topping off a partially full bottle with a little bottled propane works fine too. You don't need a lot, but do work in a vented environment. Anywhere there's an open window is fine as long as you don't have any source of ignition around.

Ronald Moravec · Mar 29, 2011

Home made D76 lasts 6 months. After which it starts to deteriorate at an excellerating rate.

I put mine in 4 or 8 oz bottles and use one shot. Never a problem.

Partially filled bottles are pure trouble. First it goes very active, then dies. If you are fussy, and work controlled, it is obvious and also well documented.

ID11 is 6 months life. I do not know how it behaves in partially filled bottles. Never tested. I have run extensive carefully controlled tests on D76 home made.

brucemuir · Mar 29, 2011

Didn't they change the formula of D-76 at one point to deal with the issue of increased activity during storage?

Pgeobc · Mar 30, 2011

>...CO2+water gives carbolic acid..."

Well, that should be Carbonic acid, but the interaction to make carbonic acid takes a compressor to dissolve it in the water under pressure. The amount formed from a mere head on the bottle would be miniscule. Take this from an old guy that formerly worked at a real soda fountain.

fschifano · Mar 30, 2011

I stand corrected. Thank you.

D76/!D-11 storage question.

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