d23 and d72 homebrewed (fallout?)

pcyco · Jul 18, 2009

hallo

im using d23 and d72 homebrewed.

in d 23 i allways i have after some hours some fallout (looks like white powder). it seems to have no effect to the development (but it interr. me if others olso have noticed this).

and d 23 leaves a gray (white) film in the trays (easy to clean).

im shure this are not the worlds biggest problems but if someone has some answers, it will make me happy to know this little secrets

analog greetings

thomas

Ian Grant · Jul 18, 2009

It'll be your water supply, probably calcium salts being precipitated. It's no huge deal, boiling the water first can help as can using a softening agent, or de-ionised/distilled water.

Ian

nickandre · Jul 18, 2009

I've noticed a little bit of fallout with my D23 after a few months of use. Mine's about a year old now.

PhotoJim · Jul 19, 2009

I think you mean precipitate?

I agree that it's likely the water. You might try using distilled water. Then again if you're getting good results, you might not need to worry. You may want to filter your developer through a coffee filter prior to storing it, to get rid of the precipitate.

Nicholas Lindan · Jul 19, 2009

The percipitate is calcium salts that have been forced out of the water by the more soluble S. Sulfite and S. Carbonate.

Add about 1/2tsp/liter of EDTA or "Calgon" water softener (sodium hexametaphosphate - look out as some Calgon isn't the real thing) to the water.

As already suggested, distilled water will fix the problem.

pcyco · Jul 20, 2009

hallo

thankyou for your answers.
sorry for my fallout i did not know the right word in english (now i know its percipitate)
my grading (i hope thats the right word) at school was only medium (3 of 5) and english (4,5 of 5)

but now i have you all to learn me both.

next time i try destilled water and will see what happens

analog greetings

thomas

Ian Grant · Jul 20, 2009

A drinking water softener/filter should be sufficient to solve your problems and is far cheaper than deionisied or distilled water in the long run. The jug type should be less taht 12 euros.

Ian

Stan160 · Jul 20, 2009

Nicholas Lindan said:
The percipitate is calcium salts that have been forced out of the water by the more soluble S. Sulfite and S. Carbonate.

Is this what is happening when I mix a sodium sulphite solution to make hypo-clear? After thoroughly mixing the S. sulphite into the water, the solution is completely clear. After a few minutes a precipitate forms, but I've never investigated further as it doesn't seem to harm the prints that are washed with it.

Ian

Ian Grant · Jul 20, 2009

Exactly the same.

Ian

PhotoJim · Jul 20, 2009

Thomas, your English is better than my German, so you're good!

"Fallout" is an English word but it usually means either a) airborne nuclear pollution caused by a nuclear bomb, or b) the consequences (usually bad) of something, e.g. "Billy wasn't prepared for the fallout after he posted on APUG about how great digital photography is."

Jim

Photo Engineer · Jul 20, 2009

Adding EDTA or Calgon runs a small risk of changing the pH. I suggest using DiSodium EDTA to minimize this risk and also because it is more common than EDTA itself. Use about 5 grams in 1 liter.

PE

sanking · Jul 20, 2009

Photo Engineer said:
Adding EDTA or Calgon runs a small risk of changing the pH. I suggest using DiSodium EDTA to minimize this risk and also because it is more common than EDTA itself. Use about 5 grams in 1 liter.

PE

Ron,

EDTA is commonly available as both Di-Sodim and Tetra-Sodium. As I recall, the Di version is acidic, the Tetra version alkaline. Thus, both can change the pH of any stock or working solution.

What do you mean by the common form of EDTA? Is this the Tetra version?

Sandy

Anscojohn · Jul 20, 2009

in d 23 i allways i have after some hours some fallout (looks like white powder). thomas[/QUOTE]

"fallout" auf Englisch; ok bei mir!

gainer · Jul 20, 2009

The usual calcium hardness is due to calcium hydroxide which is somewhat soluble in water. If you breathe through a soda straw into such hard water, the CO2 in your breath will combine with calcium hydroxide to make calcium carbonate and water. That is limestone, which precipitates.

Anscojohn · Jul 20, 2009

gainer said:
The usual calcium hardness is due to calcium hydroxide which is somewhat soluble in water. If you breathe through a soda straw into such hard water, the CO2 in your breath will combine with calcium hydroxide to make calcium carbonate and water. That is limestone, which precipitates.

*******
So could that be filtered and used?

Photo Engineer · Jul 20, 2009

sanking said:
Ron,

EDTA is commonly available as both Di-Sodim and Tetra-Sodium. As I recall, the Di version is acidic, the Tetra version alkaline. Thus, both can change the pH of any stock or working solution.

What do you mean by the common form of EDTA? Is this the Tetra version?

Sandy

Since the free acid EDTA and the tetra Sodium salt can change pH, the chemical industry prefers to use the DiSodium EDTA to minimize the pH change. That is why it has become more common over the years.

PE

gainer · Jul 22, 2009

Anscojohn said:
*******
So could that be filtered and used?

Too much trouble. Coffee filters aren't fine enough. There are developers that don't cloud up my hard water. When I need a little soft water, I collect some rain water, which is pretty clean out here, or use the water my dehumidifier extracts. It, too, is quite clean here, but not everywhere. The air in Morgantown in bygone days made every water puddle into a sulfurous acid bath. Talk about your acid rain! There were lots of "lace" fenders, not to mention raw sinuses. Dow had a chemical plant there, and the government thought wages were more important than health.

steven_e007 · Jul 22, 2009

I suppose it depends where you live, but for me distilled water is very hard to obtain, has to be specially ordered from a pharmacist or chemical supplier, and costs a FORTUNE

Dimineralised water costs a lot less and was available from car spares dealers as top up water for car batteries. Except most modern car batteries are of the 'sealed' type, so it is now proving very hard for me to find, these days. It used to be available in ironmongers and supermarkets for steam irons, but some bright spark realised that you could add colour and perfume to it and sell it for four times the price I can't find pure demin water anywhere, anymore...

So, I've taken to boiling the kettle, letting it cool and settle and then pouring off the top carefully, leaving two inches behind in the bottom. This seems to work perfectly well

pcyco · Sep 7, 2009

hallo

i used now demineralised water.
now everything is "clear".

thanks for helping

Keith Tapscott. · Sep 7, 2009

A gram or two per liter of sodium hexametaphosphate added to the water before dissolving the main components should help to prevent this from happening. http://www.dharmatrading.com/ws.html

Photo Engineer · Sep 7, 2009

Keith Tapscott. said:
A gram or two per liter of sodium hexametaphosphate added to the water before dissolving the main components should help to prevent this from happening. http://www.dharmatrading.com/ws.html

That is the old and famous Calgon in the US. Hexametaphosphate is banned in some areas due to supposed environmental damage. I recommend this approach and can see little if any damage from use by photographers, but it might cause them trouble if this is one of the chemicals banned in their area.

It can cause algal blooms in streams and lakes and has a huge BOD due to the algae that grow. It was once used in most dishwashers and water softeners but is now rather hard to get.

An alternative is Dequest 2010 or one from that family.

PE

Keith Tapscott. · Sep 7, 2009

Photo Engineer said:
That is the old and famous Calgon in the US. Hexametaphosphate is banned in some areas due to supposed environmental damage. I recommend this approach and can see little if any damage from use by photographers, but it might cause them trouble if this is one of the chemicals banned in their area.

It can cause algal blooms in streams and lakes and has a huge BOD due to the algae that grow. It was once used in most dishwashers and water softeners but is now rather hard to get.

An alternative is Dequest 2010 or one from that family.

PE

It is mentioned in Grant Haist`s Modern Photographic Processing (Volume 1) that ORIGINAL CALGON was a polymeric form of sodium hexametaphosphate and was sold under the name trade name of CALGON, but care must be taken that the product contains only sodium hexametaphosphate. The following page goes on to say that "CALGON is said to be the best sequestering agent of the phosphates, but it`s use is limited by it`s tendency to take up water, becoming sticky and hydrolysing. CALGON therefore should not be kept in contact with the sulfite or the alkali of a developer for any length of time before the solution is mixed."
That may explain why other phosphates were later used instead.

In the Ilford Manual Of Photography, it is suggested to use sodium hexametaphosphate at 3 grams per litre of stock solution.

I am currently using 1 gram per litre in home-made D-76 and might try 3 grams per litre next time I make some.
As for a possible slight change in pH, that can be adjusted for if necessary by altering the development time provided that the developer is consistently made to a formula.
Most of the current commercial B&W developers seem to contain pentasodium DTPA which I can not find for sale in small quantities.

Photo Engineer · Sep 7, 2009

Keith;

In spite of what Grant says, we did indeed use straight Calgon from drums at Kodak. When they changed the formula in the 70s or thereabouts, we switched to Quadrafos. As well as the Dequest series, there are the Sodium salts of NTA which are now being used in some color bleaches as sequestrants.

Calgon was indeed mixed with some of the powder developers of the 60s. I have read the production formulas.

PE

Keith Tapscott. · Sep 8, 2009

Photo Engineer said:
Keith

Calgon was indeed mixed with some of the powder developers of the 60s.

PE

I have not had any problems with D-76/ID-11 with sodium hexametaphosphate added.

Photo Engineer · Sep 8, 2009

As indeed you should not, but the current D-76, AFAIK, does not use Calgon. See here for what I believe is a bad misprint: http://hazard.com/msds/f2/bbp/bbppt.html

Basically, Quadrafos is close to what Calgon used to be. It is probably what is in D-76 at present.

PE

d23 and d72 homebrewed (fallout?)

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