D-76 Variations, Metaborate substitutions and fixer choice.

Hello all.

I just made my subscription to the site, as it seems to be the hub for these discussions. So here I am.
I plan to develop my film at home. I live in Brasil, and it's a little hard(expensive) to get pre-mixed chemicals here. So I'm about to make them my self. I already got the Metol, and the rest is quite easy, except Kodalk. And I ask you:

1- Browsing the Darkroom's Cookbook, I came across this D-76H variation, without Hydroquinone. According to the book it "indistinguishable" from the original, and with same developing times. How true is that? Any comments against it?

2- I plan to use Tf-2 fixer. I think I won't mind the extra time to fix, and it's easy to make, and is cheap, and superior(according to the cookbook). But! Kodalk is not easy for me, and I learned in the cookbook that I could substitute it for sodium carbonate, carefully compensating concentration of course. So I ask, is it fine to do so? Anyone done it?

I'm open to sugestions, regarding other developers and all, but for now, I won't get any phenidone, only after a deplete my current 100g of Metol.

I plan not to use a stopbath, and prepare drying agent.

Thanks

I'll develop mostly

1. D-76H was formulated by Grant Haist. It does produce results like those of regular D-76 but is intended as a one-shot and not replenished.

2. Kodalk (sodium metaborate) can be prepared from borax and sodium hydroxide (lye). Sodium carbonate is not really a good substitute. Using a lesser amount of sodium carbonate to compensate for its greater pH also will reduce the buffer capacity of the fixer. I would recommend using a traditional non-hardening fixer such as Kodak F-24 which contains sodium thiosulfate, sodium sulfite, and sodium bisulfite.

D76H isn't really a Kodak variant of D76, it's a hypothetical developer suggested by Grant Haist and is actually a variant on a Fine Grain Kodak developer published by Kodak Research before they published D76.

Over the Andes in Chile I've seen shops selling locally prepared and packaged developers and other chemistry including D76. Is no-one doing similar in Brazil?

The development time will be slightly different with D76H and you really need to use a stop bath before TF-2 otherwise you run an extremely high risk of dichroic fog which will be uneven, or use a slightly acidic fixer.

Welcome to APUG BTW

Ian

There are some who prepare and sell, but, my goal is also not to depend to much on those who do. Film is a very small niche in Brazil.

This F-24 fixer: I've found it's formula on Digitaltruth. Any suggestion on the use? Three time clearing time is good enough? Any disadvantages compared to TF-2?

I know I can prepare the mateborate solution. But sodium hydroxide is kinda dangerous, and I've read around that if you don't get high quality raw chemicals it comes out only ok. Also I'd have to get 1000g package of Sodium Hydroxide, to use 1,5g at a time. To sum up, I'll do it if there is no way around.

Can anyone help with pros and cons of acid vs alkali fixers?

If you have metol and sodium sulfite you can make d23 easily - I can't really tell the difference between my negatives developed in d76 and those I develop in d23.

I believe the US photographic supplier B.&H have a special website dedicated to Brazil, by the way

B&H do send, but, its mega expensive to send. Freestyle is the best option for overseas from the US. D23 formula uses too much metol, I'd rather use little, since it's harder to get.

Fixing times for F-24 would be comparable to those of TF-2. You can always test the fixing time by doing a clip test. Use a small piece of film leader and measure the clearing time. Fix film for twice the clearing time.

D-23 can be used as a replenished system while D-76H is a one shot. So actually D-23 would be more economical. Use Kodak D-25R as the replenisher.

Is there a precise reason why you do not use plain D-76? That one does not need Kodalk. And is considered by many users as a hard-to-beat reference. Especially used 1+1 one-shot for consistency.

But, if you must have Kodalk (sodium metaborate) see:
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)
http://www.film-and-darkroom-user.org.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=5118
And probably many more

http://www.lostlabours.co.uk/photography/formulae/developers/devD76_variants.htm

D76d is the best scratch for stability (ie pH drift)
Wine vinegar diluted is ok if you really need to use acid stop.
Fixing is time temperature film type and fix exhaustion dependent!
The tabular grain films take twice as long!
Wash time is temperature dependent...

If you can source ammonium chloride, then you can make rapid fixer as well.

I'm going to suggest a different approach here.

Bite the bullet and buy a bottle of HC-110 from B&H or somewhere. You'll have film developer for the next few years that way, and probably cheaper than mixing your own.

Getting raw materials for fixer is cheaper in bulk. You usually can buy 1000g of something for just a bit more than 100g... You can make a good acetic acid stop from white distilled vinegar (it's really just acetic acid in water...). Dilute it to 1.5-2% and there's your stop bath.

I second the suggestion to use F-24 if you have trouble sourcing sodium metaborate. Bisulfite should be less of a problem.

Best,

Doremus

Any opinions on the use of citric acid instead of bisulfite in F24?
Juan

To buy a bottle hc-110 alone, would cost me about US$ 100, to get here. Believe-me, it's way more expensive, compared to home brew.

No one said to much about the end results in alkali vs acid fixers.
On the Cookbook, it's said that alkali washes out easily. How much the procedure would change? How would you do it?

Anyone used FX-1 developer? I know it's for slower films, and all, but I'd like some comments about it.

THanks

I'm surprised not one person has mentioned Caffenol home-brew developer?? I don't use it and have never tried it, but from some of the results I've seen it does a really great job, is safe to use and you should have no problem getting the ingredients in your location. Oh, and it should also be pretty darn cheap too. You might want to do a search here and on the web for the different recipes and what might work best for you. As to fixer? I use homemade TF2. Your problem with homemade fixers like TF2 is that the amount of sodium thiosulfate is pretty large and pretty heavy. Might be alright for you if you can acquire it locally, but to ship it would be pricey. I like TF2, but I also use Pyro developers and that's the main reason I use TF2. John W

I have used TF-2 for about 10-years. I don't notice any problems with it. I use the same procedure as with any other fixer. I use a staining developer, so I went to an alkaline fixer to preserve the stain. Also, TF-2 has no smell.
I asked about the citric acid version of F-24 as it may be easier for you to get citric acid than bisulfite.
Formula is - 240g sodium thisulfate, sodium sulfite 10g, citric acid 22g, 1L water.

As others have said, look at D-23. It would probably be most economical.
juan

juan said:

Any opinions on the use of citric acid instead of bisulfite in F24?
Juan

Click to expand...

You could however then it would not be F-24. Since citric acid is more acidic than sodium bisulfite I would use about a third of the amount bisulfite called for. Dissolve the citric acid in a small amount of water and add to the other dissolved ingredients with rapid stirring. Then make up to the total volume. This is done with any strong acids added to thiosulfate solutions.

Citric acid is a moderately strong acid. A 0.1 N solution has a pH of 2.2. A 0.1 N solution of hydrochloric acid has a pH of 1.0.

juan said:

Any opinions on the use of citric acid instead of bisulfite in F24?
Juan

Click to expand...

Bisulphite is used in wine making...

teleparallel said:

B&H do send, but, its mega expensive to send. Freestyle is the best option for overseas from the US. D23 formula uses too much metol, I'd rather use little, since it's harder to get.

Click to expand...

I'm in Australia and have used B&H very sparingly over the years because of the cost of shipping, and a few years ago US Postal became even more expensive. However, I've noticed that they now have an alternative that is cheaper. It might be worth having another look. I don't know about import restrictions into Brasil though.

Teleparallel,


Bem vindo ao (welcome to) APUG!

I am also from Brazil and live close to São Paulo. I am still finishing my darkroom, which is a dedicated room in my house. So, I still can't give you any hints on specific chemicals results.

I intend on mixing my own chemicals, since I want to experiment with different developers before I settle for one of them for black and white. I also intend on mixing my own ECN-2 chemicals so I can develop my rolls of Kodak Vision and Fuji Eterna without color shifts.

If you have a business (or know someone who does and can help you), you can get some stuff from Sigma-Aldrich (sial.com). They have offices and distribution facilities in Brazil, but only sell to businesses (you need a CNPJ).

There are a lot of shops, especially in São Paulo, which sell chemicals of all kinds. Some substances (like strong acids and bases, extremely explosive/flammable and toxic substances) are controlled by the Federal Police, others by the Army, so you'd need an authorization granted by those entities to buy these. Well, at least in theory. Some shops will sell without asking for any documents. Try your luck. I still haven't bought any, except for Hydroxylamine Sulphate and CD-4 from Sigma-Aldrich.

I also buy film and paper from Freestyle because their shipping rates to Brazil are the cheapest. I got 10 rolls of Ektar 100 last month from them. If you want to do it in the future, we can combine our orders and split the shipping costs... Taxes will be unavoidable...

You're gonna like this place. Most of the regulars, if not all, are really helpful and won't let you down. Most have a good sense of humor, as seen in some classified ads and the great joke threads in the General Discussion subforum.


Flavio

PA Rodinal is another easy option... Drain cleaner, pain killer, ...

Dead Link Removed

D76d works

I have settled on D76d from the cookbook. It is very stable and I have used fresh unopened developer after 6 months to a year old with no ill effects. I only use 1:1 dilution one shot. I have read that this buffered mix is actually closer to the present D76 recipe than the original. I never tried D23 cause I already bought a bottle of hydroquinone and dammit I was going to use it! Good luck.

Chris

There are a lot of developers that you can make with only metol. D-23 and Beutler's are two great ones that are different. No need to get crazy importing chemicals. Metol is all you need.

Fixers are fixers and it seems to me that you are overcomplicating things. Just get your hands on whatever salts you can. Sodium is usually easier. Pool supply stores will probably have all you need. I can't imagine that there are no pools in Brazil! I buy chemicals from pool supply places here in the US. They work fine and are right down the street. Sodium Carbonate and Sodium Sulfite are both easily accessible, as is Sodium Hydroxide if you want to make Metaborate (at a hardware/plumbing store). I imagine it would be the same for you in Brazil. Sodium Thiosulfate is called Chlorine Neutralizer here in the US pool supply stores and you can buy it by the bucket! A bucket will last you for years.

Acid fixers take longer to wash out of paper, but film doesn't absorb as much of the chemicals. Don't worry about the differences. Just give the film a good wash and you will be fine.

Good luck!

I can get the chemicals easily, except sodium metaborate and ammonium tiosulfate. Some people said around to make ammonium tiosulfate from sodium tiosulfate and ammonium chloride. In the case of TF-3, the extra salt(NaCL) will have any effect in the fixing? Can it affect the results?

If you are in São Paulo, try this place called Casa Americana. They used to carry a huge variety of chemicals. You have to call them. Their website sucks!