d-76 packaging - wrong amount?

jordanstarr · Jun 27, 2007

on my d-76 pouch of concentrated powder it says there is 14.6oz, but i measured 10oz. so what i did was put 5oz and treated it as though it was half of the package and mixed my developer accordingly (it says the package of 14.6oz will make 3.8L, so i just took half the package and made 1.9L). the negatives turned out normal (which would be 7.3oz), but what's up with that? does the powder get more dense with time or something? it may seem trivial as i just treated it in terms of percentage and it worked out fine, but if i used a different form of measuring it could have been horrible.

jordanstarr · Jun 27, 2007

i also just mixed my xtol and it's the same deal - says 9.4oz but measured 6.5oz. as i look harder maybe i'm just an idiot as the beaker says "fl.oz", so i'm assuming fluid ounces are a different measurement than normal ounces? correct me if i'm wrong. i'm canadian, i work in mL and L.

Roger Hicks · Jun 27, 2007

jordanstarr said:
i also just mixed my xtol and it's the same deal - says 9.4oz but measured 6.5oz. as i look harder maybe i'm just an idiot as the beaker says "fl.oz", so i'm assuming fluid ounces are a different measurement than normal ounces? correct me if i'm wrong. i'm canadian, i work in mL and L.

Think about it, they have to be. A fluid ounce is a volumetric measure, corresponding to the volume of an ounce of water: 20 oz to the pint (Americans use smaller pints of 16 fl. oz., but bigger fluid ounces, so an American pint is roughly 8/9 the size of a real pint).

Now consider specific gravity. Alcohol (from memory) is 0.78, so one fluid ounce will weigh 0.78 oz, while mercury is 13.0 so a fluid ounce weighs 13 oz.

Powdered developer chemicals sink, so an S.G. of 1.3 to 1.5 sounds about right, so 10 fl. oz. would be 13 to 15 oz. An odd idea, measuring powders in fl. oz., but unless I'm reading you wrong (which I may well be) I see no other possibility.

Cheers,

Roger

niels · Jun 27, 2007

Think about it, they have to be. A fluid ounce is a volumetric measure, corresponding to the volume of an ounce of water: 20 oz to the pint (Americans use smaller pints of 16 fl. oz., but bigger fluid ounces, so an American pint is roughly 8/9 the size of a real pint).

Well, at the risk of starting a flame war: there's a reason to use the metric system ;-)

To confuse things even more: I just mixed a "small" bag of D-76 actually. That also states the contents in ounces, but it mixes 1 liter of developer, rather than some non-metric measure.
I did not measure the weight of it, unfortunately.

cheers,
./Niels

Roger Hicks · Jun 27, 2007

niels said:
Well, at the risk of starting a flame war: there's a reason to use the metric system ;-)

Dear Niels,

True enough. I can see a couple of real reasons to use imperial measure -- it's much harder to be an order of magnitude out, and a pint is a much more satisfying measure for beer than a half litre (and your beer goes cold if you order a whole litre, unless you're really thirsty) -- but the main reason that I still use them is that I was brought up with them and am used to them. My generation (I was 57 last week) has to make a bit of an effort to think in the metric system, at least outside the lab (and even there, I seem to recall that the MKS/CGS changeover was when I was at school), but I think it's an effort worth making.

I can't see any excuse at all, except perhaps a desire to give short measure, for the short or wine gallon (3.96 l) instead of the imperial gallon (4.54 l). That'll get the flamers going!

To return to the main point, though, yes, ounces-per-litre is pretty weird.

Cheers,

Roger

niels · Jun 27, 2007

Also besides the point, but Roger, you are spot on about the beer. It was really satisfying to be able to order a pint while I was in the UK recently. It just feels right ;-)

The Germans have a nice work-around for this. They use half-litre glasses, but one just orders a "big" beer.

And I can definitely see your point about what one is used to. I lived in the US for a year, and the only thing I ever got used to were the length measures (inch, feet, yard) and a couple of simple volumes. Fluid ounces and weights, the different gallons, just confused the hell out of me.

cheers,
./Niels

jim appleyard · Jun 27, 2007

Roger, happy birthday!

David A. Goldfarb · Jun 27, 2007

There are "ounces" of weight and "fluid ounces" of volume. There are 16 ounces in a pound, and there are 32 fluid ounces in a quart, and four quarts in a gallon. Speaking colloquially, we don't usually specify "fluid" ounces when talking about volumes, because it is assumed that liquids are measured in fluid ounces, and solids and powders are measured by weight, at least when we talk about "ounces" of a solid or powder as opposed to cups or teaspoons.

The "ounces" on the package should be weight, not volume. If you measured the volume of the powder in (fluid) ounces, it wouldn't likely correspond to the weight of the powder in ounces.

Just to make life more confusing, precious metals are usually weighed in Troy ounces, and there are 12 of those to a pound.

Ole · Jun 27, 2007

Some older developer recipes could well be written in Apothecarie's ounces, which is the same as a Troy ounce AFAIK.

juan · Jun 27, 2007

Ah, one of the wonderful things about being an American is the ability to be totally schizophrenic in measurements - my print fixer formula for instance is 1-cup sodium thiosulfate, 20-mg sodium metabisulfite, and half-a-tray of water.
juan

Ole · Jun 27, 2007

Add a tablespoon of ammonium chloride and two teaspoons of sodium sulfite to that, and you should be pretty close to OF-1!

Nick Zentena · Jun 27, 2007

Roger Hicks said:
(and your beer goes cold if you order a whole litre, unless you're really thirsty

This must be what gives UK beer a bad name. Pubs that serve it so hot that at room temperture it cools down.

David Brown · Jun 27, 2007

jordanstarr said:
so what i did was put 5oz and treated it as though it was half of the package and mixed my developer accordingly

Never mind the Imperial/Metric debate and beer ...:rolleyes:

It is probably not a good practice to mix only portions of a pre-mixed powder developer. There is no guarantee that you will get even proportions of the ingredients unless you mix the whole package.

Roger Hicks · Jun 27, 2007

David A. Goldfarb said:
There are "ounces" of weight and "fluid ounces" of volume. There are 16 ounces in a pound, and there are 32 fluid ounces in a quart, and four quarts in a gallon. Speaking colloquially, we don't usually specify "fluid" ounces when talking about volumes, because it is assumed that liquids are measured in fluid ounces, and solids and powders are measured by weight, at least when we talk about "ounces" of a solid or powder as opposed to cups or teaspoons.

The "ounces" on the package should be weight, not volume. If you measured the volume of the powder in (fluid) ounces, it wouldn't likely correspond to the weight of the powder in ounces.

Just to make life more confusing, precious metals are usually weighed in Troy ounces, and there are 12 of those to a pound.

Dear David,

Yes, but there are 20 ounces to a pint and 40 to a quart, not 16 and 32. On the other hand, your fl. oz. are bigger than mine...Another good argument for the metric system, which at least is consistent world-wide.

And as you say, many old formulae are given in apothecary weight, not avoirdupois. Though I can't remember (and am too lazy to check) whether an apothecary pound is the same as an avoirdupois pound. I'm pretty sure it isn't, and that the ounces are different too -- just like imperial and US measure.

Cheers,

Roger

David A. Goldfarb · Jun 27, 2007

Yes, this is true. I have no objection to the metric system, but for the purpose of understanding the label on Kodak products, which the original poster asked about, there are 16 US oz to a pound, and they are not the same as fluid ounces, US or British.

As for reconciling Troy/apothecary weights to avoirdupois, according to Random House Webster's Unabridged Dictionary in Troy weight--

24 grains = 1 pennyweight (1.555 grams); 20 pennyweights = 1 ounce (31.103 grams); 12 ounces = 1 pound (0.373 kilogram). The grain, ounce, and pound are the same as in apothecaries' weight, the grain alone being the same as in avoirdupois weight.

Roger Hicks · Jun 27, 2007

David A. Goldfarb said:
Yes, this is true. I have no objection to the metric system, but for the purpose of understanding the label on Kodak products, which the original poster asked about, there are 16 US oz to a pound, and they are not the same as fluid ounces, US or British.

As for reconciling Troy/apothecary weights to avoirdupois, according to Random House Webster's Unabridged Dictionary in Troy weight--

24 grains = 1 pennyweight (1.555 grams); 20 pennyweights = 1 ounce (31.103 grams); 12 ounces = 1 pound (0.373 kilogram). The grain, ounce, and pound are the same as in apothecaries' weight, the grain alone being the same as in avoirdupois weight.

Dear David,

Sorry: didn't mean to muddy the waters still further. I've just come back from a very liquid lunch at the Societé des Ainés Ruraux or Society of Rural Elders.

I think that weight is the same in both cases; it's just the 'a pint's a pound the world around' (as my wife was taught at school) that confuses matters.

Thanks very much for the details on the two pounds: 454 g vs. 373 g. So a troy ounce is 31,1g and an avoirdupois ounce is 28,4g, around 10% different. AAARGH! Bring on metrication...

Cheers,

Roger

Ole · Jun 27, 2007

Totally off topic, but...

One of my "favorite ounces" is the Ethiopian "Birr". It's defined as the weigth of one Maria-Theresien-Taler, of 1780 date - or 28.0668 g. "Birr" is also the monetary unit of Ethiopia. A "birra" however, is a small bottle of beer (at least in Eritrea).

Roger Hicks · Jun 27, 2007

Ole said:
Totally off topic, but...

One of my "favorite ounces" is the Ethiopian "Birr". It's defined as the weigth of one Maria-Theresien-Taler, of 1780 date - or 28.0668 g. "Birr" is also the monetary unit of Ethiopia. A "birra" however, is a small bottle of beer (at least in Eritrea).

Estmado Ole! (I can't seem to get ALT 173, the upside-down !],

Surely all current Maria Theresa dollars are dated 1780, to avoid confusion...

But you're right: this is surely the natural unit of measurement.

Cheers,

Roger

Neal · Jun 27, 2007

Dear jordanstarr,

I was too lazy to read all the posts so I apologize if this has been stated by others. A fluid ounce is the volume of water that weighs one ounce. It can be very confusing to the uninitiated. I see Roger has already brought up the differences in "Imperial" measures!

Neal Wydra

z-man · Jun 27, 2007

when an oz was an oz

Roger Hicks said:
Dear David,

Sorry: didn't mean to muddy the waters still further. I've just come back from a very liquid lunch at the Societé des Ainés Ruraux or Society of Rural Elders.

I think that weight is the same in both cases; it's just the 'a pint's a pound the world around' (as my wife was taught at school) that confuses matters.

Thanks very much for the details on the two pounds: 454 g vs. 373 g. So a troy ounce is 31,1g and an avoirdupois ounce is 28,4g, around 10% different. AAARGH! Bring on metrication...

Cheers,

Roger

happy birthday roger-i finally feel less intimidated now that i know that i have 5 yrs on you

when i was a biker in the 60's an "oh zee" was an ounce of la yerba buena but there was allways somebody who would start a serious throw down by claiming that " this oh zee's short-it's only 29grms"-buyers would allways demand a 32 grm oz while those that sold, standardized on the 29 grm oz-how did i live thru all that i wonder?!?!?

by the way, since you are in acatan, do you speak the local? i only recently found out that my family name is the same as a city very near bilbao-i am andalus moor and the idea that i might also be vasco seems mighty strange at this late date-the political implications are personaly confusing so i think i'll just move to andora and start up my own version of the reconquista refrita

wanna come along?-i know you still got a black shadow or equivilent stashed some where

vaya con dios hermanito

Roger Hicks · Jun 27, 2007

Nick Zentena said:
This must be what gives UK beer a bad name. Pubs that serve it so hot that at room temperture it cools down.

Not just the UK. Beer is often reckoned to taste best at the temperature at which it is brewed, and there are a number of Belgian beers (the world's leading beer-brewing nation, for my money) that are better at room temperature, even warm room temperature, than chilled. And given the English climate, and the nature of most traditional pubs, 'room temperature' IS slightly chilled.

By contrast, 90% of American beer (brewed with rice and maize, so it's not even legally beer in Germany) is so disgusting that it's only drinkable when half frozen.

But to quote Theodore Sturgeon, a great American, upon being told that 90% of science fiction was rubbish,

"Sir, 90 per cent of anything is rubbish."

A maxim I have often applied to my own photography (and that of others).

Cheers,

Roger

jim appleyard · Jun 27, 2007

Roger Hicks said:
By contrast, 90% of American beer (brewed with rice and maize, so it's not even legally beer in Germany) is so disgusting that it's only drinkable when half frozen.

True, but don't tell that to the folks who drink Genesee Cream Ale (called Genny Screamers for the after-effect). It's a regional brew that's awful at any temp.

Roger Hicks · Jun 27, 2007

z-man said:
happy birthday roger-i finally feel less intimidated now that i know that i have 5 yrs on you

when i was a biker in the 60's an "oh zee" was an ounce of la yerba buena but there was allways somebody who would start a serious throw down by claiming that " this oh zee's short-it's only 29grms"-buyers would allways demand a 32 grm oz while those that sold, standardized on the 29 grm oz-how did i live thru all that i wonder?!?!?

by the way, since you are in acatan, do you speak the local? i only recently found out that my family name is the same as a city very near bilbao-i am andalus moor and the idea that i might also be vasco seems mighty strange at this late date-the political implications are personaly confusing so i think i'll just move to andora and start up my own version of the reconquista refrita

wanna come along?-i know you still got a black shadow or equivilent stashed some where

vaya con dios hermanito

Estimado Hermano,

The whole bit on Aquitania/Acatan/Catalunya/Navarra, not to mention Euskera batua, is mightily confusing and depends on who is drawing the maps.

I speak modest modern French and can just about read Catalan and Provençal, but not Euskera. As for the Shadow, I wish! That or a Brough or a Hesketh (I've ridden both but never a Vinnie). All I have now is a 77/78 R100RS, twin-plugged, gas-flowed and with the 'neck' in the oilways widened to allow 7500-8000 rpm. This gives me about the same bhp at the rear wheel (70+) as the bike had at the crankshaft when new. It's still just about good for over 130 mph/210 km/h, two up, which is OK by me.

'I wanna go back to Andorra/It's the land I do adore/They spent four dollars and ninety cents/On armaments for their defense/Did you ever hear such confidence?/It's the land I do adore...'

(Woody Guthrie? Pete Seeger? Can anyone remind me?)

Do you spend much time in Spain or France? Perhaps we can arrange to meet...

Vaya con dios,

Roger

Roger Hicks · Jun 27, 2007

jim appleyard said:
True, but don't tell that to the folks who drink Genesee Cream Ale (called Genny Screamers for the after-effect). It's a regional brew that's awful at any temp.

Dear Jim,

Oh, dear...

I tried some once (just a can or two) because my wife Frances (silver wedding last Sunday) was born in Rochester and brought up in Hilton. It didn't seem bad, but from from what you say, it's lucky I didn't try more.

Doesn't Genesee also do a brew named after an improbable number of horses? Or is that another upstate brewery? (I met Frances in Los Angeles -- she moved as soon as she graduated from high school, so such details are understandably hazy).

Cheers,

Roger

Ole · Jun 27, 2007

Roger Hicks said:
... Surely all current Maria Theresa dollars are dated 1780, to avoid confusion...

But you're right: this is surely the natural unit of measurement.

Not all of them... I have a very very worn one which I got cheap in Eritrea (it had the wrong portrait on) which is probably a 1774 one.

But there are millions of the 1780 ones, minted as late as 1985. That's a pretty long run for one coin from one year...

d-76 packaging - wrong amount?

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