D-23 Powder chemicals - weight vs volume

pbromaghin · Oct 18, 2021

This is a question I have arising our of George Mann's "Simplest Developing Solution: thread Simplest developing solution | Photrio.com Photography Forums, but starting a separate thread to not clutter his up.

The d-23 recipe from Pictorial Planet (D23 (pictorialplanet.com)) in that thread is in volume, but the chemicals to make D-23 are sold by weight. Yes, I know powders settle in a container - I'm just looking for a ballpark:

About how much volume is 1 pound of Metol?
Photographers' Formulary Metol (Elon) - 1 Lb. 10-0770 1LB B&H (bhphotovideo.com)

500 grams of Sodium Sulfite, Anhydrous?
Sodium Sulfite, Anhydrous, Laboratory Grade, 500 g | Carolina.com

100 grams Sodium Metaborate?
Photographers' Formulary 100g Sodium Metaborate, Balanced Alkali, Kodalk 10-1285 100G (adorama.com)

Thanks!

Donald Qualls · Oct 18, 2021

My experience with sodium sulfite is in very fine crystal form -- grain size like table sugar, about -- and it's about half again the density of water. I bought a ten pound bag last year, and it's significantly smaller than a gallon. I'd call it 20 g per tablespoon, give or take a gram.

I've never handled Metol in quantities above 100 g, but a 100 g jar from Formulary is about a pint volume and comes roundly half full, so you can approximate at the same density as water, about 5 g per teaspoon.

Can't really help you with metaborate, but there isn't any in D-23 -- that's goes in the DK-25 replenisher, which you won't need if you dilute 1+1 and use the D-23 one-shot.

Christiaan Phleger · Oct 18, 2021

From my APUG Notes, from a post by Pat Gainer.
I've used this in a jam when caught without a scale, using kitchen measuring cups (not used for food of course).

Pat Gainer spoon measure D-23

You can mix 2 level teaspoons of Metol and 4 tablespoons of sodium sulfite in a liter of water and will never know the difference. A standard teaspoon is 5 ml and a tablespoon is 15 ml, just in case we're different over here.

pbromaghin · Oct 18, 2021

Donald Qualls said:
My experience with sodium sulfite is in very fine crystal form -- grain size like table sugar, about -- and it's about half again the density of water. I bought a ten pound bag last year, and it's significantly smaller than a gallon. I'd call it 20 g per tablespoon, give or take a gram.

I've never handled Metol in quantities above 100 g, but a 100 g jar from Formulary is about a pint volume and comes roundly half full, so you can approximate at the same density as water, about 5 g per teaspoon.

Can't really help you with metaborate, but there isn't any in D-23 -- that's goes in the DK-25 replenisher, which you won't need if you dilute 1+1 and use the D-23 one-shot.

Donald, thank you! That's a big help to know how much to buy at a time.

As to the metaborate, I've been using d-76 1+1 for years and only recently switched to full strength and like the negatives much better. So, looking into D-23, I'm considering full strength with replenishment.

pbromaghin · Oct 18, 2021

RidingWaves said:
From my APUG Notes, from a post by Pat Gainer.
I've used this in a jam when caught without a scale, using kitchen measuring cups (not used for food of course).

Pat Gainer spoon measure D-23

You can mix 2 level teaspoons of Metol and 4 tablespoons of sodium sulfite in a liter of water and will never know the difference. A standard teaspoon is 5 ml and a tablespoon is 15 ml, just in case we're different over here.

That recipe is nearly identical with the Pictorial Planet. It's good to know others have had success with it, too.

Donald Qualls · Oct 18, 2021

Cool! I used D-23 and DK-25R for about a year, around 2006-2007 when I first got into 4x5. It's pretty cheap to run, but it has a capacity limit -- you should discard the working solution and start over when you've added replenisher equal to the original stock solution volume. Xtol has no such limitation, but it's not practical to mix for yourself because the metal sequestrant(s) is hard to get.

pentaxuser · Oct 18, 2021

pbromaghin said:
The d-23 recipe from Pictorial Planet (D23 (pictorialplanet.com)) in that thread is in volume, but the chemicals to make D-23 are sold by weight.
About how much volume is 1 pound of Metol?
Photographers' Formulary Metol (Elon) - 1 Lb. 10-0770 1LB B&H (bhphotovideo.com)

500 grams of Sodium Sulfite, Anhydrous?
Sodium Sulfite, Anhydrous, Laboratory Grade, 500 g | Carolina.com

100 grams Sodium Metaborate?
Photographers' Formulary 100g Sodium Metaborate, Balanced Alkali, Kodalk 10-1285 100G (adorama.com)

Thanks!

As far as I can see the video quotes all the ingredients by weight not volume. Yes he uses spoons so volume instead of weighing the stuff because that makes it simpler for those without scales but he quotes the weights which in this case are grammes not ounces or pounds but grammes can be converted into ounces and pounds. So I am unsure what the problem is?

pentaxuser

Doremus Scudder · Oct 18, 2021

Check out the teaspoon equivalents for chemicals from The Darkroom Cookbook here: https://silveronplastic.files.wordp...ookbook-3rd-ed-s-anchell-elsevier-2008-ww.pdf

The tables begin on page 333. You'll need to then convert from spoons to oz. or whatever to get answers to your questions.

Keep in mind that volumes can vary for the same actual amount of chemical (crystal size/shape, water content, etc.), but this should give you a ballpark figure.

Best,

Doremus

pbromaghin · Oct 18, 2021

pentaxuser said:
As far as I can see the video quotes all the ingredients by weight not volume. Yes he uses spoons so volume instead of weighing the stuff because that makes it simpler for those without scales but he quotes the weights which in this case are grammes not ounces or pounds but grammes can be converted into ounces and pounds. So I am unsure what the problem is?

pentaxuser

I've watched it twice and I don't see/hear any reference to weight.

foc · Oct 19, 2021

If mixing any chemical, I would always use weight (in metric), because a gram is a gram.
You can buy a small accurate weighing scale , they are not expensive and well worth the investment.
Then at least you will know your mixing will be consistent and accurate.

Ernst-Jan · Oct 19, 2021

foc said:
If mixing any chemical, I would always use weight (in metric), because a gram is a gram.
You can buy a small accurate weighing scale , they are not expensive and well worth the investment.
Then at least you will know your mixing will be consistent and accurate.

Exactly. One teaspoon is bigger than another and you will not always have everytime the same volume on the spoon.
A gram is always a gram. It might be a teespoon and a bit or two spoons if you have a smaller spoons.

Donald Qualls · Oct 19, 2021

Ernst-Jan said:
One teaspoon is bigger than another and you will not always have everytime the same volume on the spoon.

If you're using a cook's measuring spoons, a teaspoon is 5 ml and a tablespoon is 15 ml, within about 5% from one mold to another. If you're using tableware, all bets are off.

pentaxuser · Oct 19, 2021

pbromaghin said:
I've watched it twice and I don't see/hear any reference to weight.

You are right but the link you gave in your thread actually takes me to the website and not the video and it is there that the weights are given. I wrongly assumed that this applied to the video as well. Having given me the link to his website I had just assumed that you had checked out your link and had seen the weights

One of the bottom comments below the video actually does mention weights as well

Anyway the key point is that you now have the weights. Just a little point for the others arguing on the size of spoons; he was using correctly- sized kitchen spoons which are used in the U.K. for exact measuring when doing baking . These are commonplace in the U.K. and I would have thought in the U.S. as well, given that he two cultures start from similar baking traditions but it may be that such a set of spoons are not sold in the rest of Europe which may not recognise "teaspoons and tablespoons" as being of a standard volume

pentaxuser

Donald Qualls · Oct 19, 2021

pentaxuser said:
it may be that such a set of spoons are not sold in the rest of Europe which may not recognise "teaspoons and tablespoons" as being of a standard volume

I have a friend in Netherlands who recognizes teaspoon and tablespoon measure, though I can't say it's universal. Knowing a teaspoon is 5 ml and a tablespoon is 15 ml is enough to convert anything.

Don_ih · Oct 19, 2021

The spoon measures work because they are approximately the correct weight for the liquid volume and, almost as important, they maintain the correct ratio between chemicals for that liquid volume. The chemicals do not become spent during normal development, so a bit too much (and even a bit too little) doesn't have that much impact. If you use d23 1:3, the inaccuracy of measurement becomes even less important. Of course, if you grossly use too little, you will exhaust the chemistry before development ends. But using cooking measures will be accurate enough.
If you are very demanding, of course, and need exact repeatable results every time, you better use a balance. Triple beam balances are quite cheap and are about as good as you could possibly need.

pbromaghin · Oct 19, 2021

pentaxuser said:
You are right but the link you gave in your thread actually takes me to the website and not the video and it is there that the weights are given. I wrongly assumed that this applied to the video as well. Having given me the link to his website I had just assumed that you had checked out your link and had seen the weights

One of the bottom comments below the video actually does mention weights as well

Anyway the key point is that you now have the weights. Just a little point for the others arguing on the size of spoons; he was using correctly- sized kitchen spoons which are used in the U.K. for exact measuring when doing baking . These are commonplace in the U.K. and I would have thought in the U.S. as well, given that he two cultures start from similar baking traditions but it may be that such a set of spoons are not sold in the rest of Europe which may not recognise "teaspoons and tablespoons" as being of a standard volume

pentaxuser

I somehow was able to read the website after watching the video without even realizing he had the weights instead of the volumes. That has been happening more frequently to me lately - sloppily missing details in reading. It doesn't make for good program code-writing. Getting old sucks.

pentaxuser · Oct 19, 2021

pbromaghin said:
I somehow was able to read the website after watching the video without even realizing he had the weights instead of the volumes. That has been happening to me a lot lately - sloppily missing details in reading. It doesn't make for good program code-writing. Getting old sucks.

I do exactly the same. For instance on another photo forum I have just apologised for replying to someone who was Norm and calling him Terry

pentaxuser

Donald Qualls · Oct 19, 2021

Don Heisz said:
Triple beam balances are quite cheap and are about as good as you could possibly need.

Not sure if they're still sold (because electronic scales have gotten so accurate/cheap), but a reloading scale will measure to 0.1 grain (= 6.5 mg) with confidence, and they were under $30 last time I looked at them (I've had mine for forty years). Not as useful for weighing an unknown amount, but perfect for setting to a required weight and "trickling" up to that value -- and, in its original application, potentially doing that a hundred times in an hour or so.

Don_ih · Oct 19, 2021

Donald Qualls said:
Not sure if they're still sold (because electronic scales have gotten so accurate/cheap), but a reloading scale will measure to 0.1 grain (= 6.5 mg) with confidence, and they were under $30 last time I looked at them (I've had mine for forty years). Not as useful for weighing an unknown amount, but perfect for setting to a required weight and "trickling" up to that value -- and, in its original application, potentially doing that a hundred times in an hour or so.

My balance zeros with a coffee filter on it. I trickle up to all amounts for measuring chemicals. I don't think it starts to get close to balance until it's within a gram. I'm always surprised how little needs to be taken away when it goes past. I was using a digital scale before. It was pretty much random with any weight under 10 grams. It also relies on the exactness of the surface on which it sits - especially for the lower weights. Also, a scale weighs, a balance measures mass. Who knows when there will be a fluctuation in the earth's gravity?

pbromaghin · Oct 19, 2021

Can D-23 be replenished pretty much as long as you want?

Donald Qualls · Oct 19, 2021

Yep, reloading scales have easy zero (adjustable foot on the end opposite the pan) so you can zero out a filter paper or alternative pan. Mine (RCBS, bought used in 1981) started to lift off the buffer spring at about 0.5 grains below set weight -- that's close to 32 mg. Really astonishing the level of precision available for something that must cost almost nothing to make (to still sell under $40).

Donald Qualls · Oct 19, 2021

pbromaghin said:
Can D-23 be replenished pretty much as long as you want?

Rule of thumb for replenishment other than self-replenishing (Xtol etc.) is to discard the working solution after you've added an equal volume of replenisher -- if you have a liter of tank solution, make up a liter of replenisher, and start fresh when the replenisher runs out.

Xtol, and by extension EcoPro and XT-3, can be replenished indefinitely (or to paraphrase and old Bic commercial, "You'll spill it before it goes out of spec."). Those are the only self-replenishing developers I know of at present.

MattKing · Oct 19, 2021

Donald Qualls said:
Xtol, and by extension EcoPro and XT-3, can be replenished indefinitely (or to paraphrase and old Bic commercial, "You'll spill it before it goes out of spec."). Those are the only self-replenishing developers I know of at present.

T-Max RS as well, but it is now only sold in lab size quantities - 25 litres and up.

Mick Fagan · Oct 20, 2021

The official measurements for a tablespoon in the USA is 14.8ml while the UK and Canada have it at 15ml, meanwhile a tablespoon in Australia is 20ml.

Source Margaret Fulton's Complete Cookbook, second edition 1977, she is an Australian.

I checked a couple of online sources, which confirm the above measurements. I would suggest photographic chemistry measurement is best done via weight, but I'm not a chemist by a long shot.......

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Oct 20, 2021

pbromaghin said:
About how much volume is 1 pound of Metol?
Photographers' Formulary Metol (Elon) - 1 Lb. 10-0770 1LB B&H (bhphotovideo.com)

500 grams of Sodium Sulfite, Anhydrous?
Sodium Sulfite, Anhydrous, Laboratory Grade, 500 g | Carolina.com

100 grams Sodium Metaborate?
Photographers' Formulary 100g Sodium Metaborate, Balanced Alkali, Kodalk 10-1285 100G (adorama.com)

Bulk density of Sodium Sulphite is 1.25g/ml. So, 500g should be 400ml.
Bulk density of Sodium Metaborate is 0.75g/mL. So, 100g should be 133ml.
Bulk density of Metol is 0.66g/ml. So, 1 lb of Metol should be 688ml.

"Bulk density is the amount of powder by weight that is present in a defined volume. It is usually expressed as g ml−1 and is obtained by measuring the volume of a fixed weight of powder after it has been tapped for a defined number of times. A high bulk density is very important in packaging and transportation, and is desirable as it can significantly reduce costs. The bulk density is influenced by a range of factors. These include the amount of air entrapped in the powder particles (occluded air), the overall density of the particle (determined by the composition), the air between the individual powder particles (interstitial air), the particle size distribution and the particle shape."

D-23 Powder chemicals - weight vs volume

Moderator

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency