Cynicism in Continuing to Invest in Medium Format

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Zyklus

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I will preface this by apologising if my first post (long time lurker) on these forums comes across as doom and gloom, however it is something that has come to concern me very much.

Ten years ago I had zero qualms about shooting whatever photographic equipment I could get my hands on. I wasn't loyal to any one brand or format and would experiment, buy and sell my gear on a whim and be generally happy with my results. It was a nice feeling having the knowledge that formats like medium format cameras, lenses, accessories and servicing were all plentiful and so I was secure in the knowledge that when I did find my dream camera, I would (hopefully) be able to rely on the support of its manufacturer to be able to invest in a system that could last a lifetime.

Nowadays, my perspective regarding photography has changed and narrowed, and with a regretful amount of cynicism I find myself only really comfortable supporting manufacturers that can still support me. Ilford is a prime example; a company whose film and paper I now exclusively use as it feels nice putting my money and support towards a brand that still truly has a vision in supporting film. Fuji on the opposite end of the spectrum prove time and time again that they have zero interest in continual support towards film and film shooters; I no longer touch their products.

Similarly, the number of camera manufacturers that still offer new medium format film products has largely dried up; Hasselblad have cut their V/500 series; Mamiya have cut their RZ and rangefinder lines; Fuji have recently cut their GF670; Horseman and Plaubel have to the best of my knowledge stopped production; Rollei is gone; Pentax too. We are becoming ever reliant on second hand gear that is rapidly increasing in price and will have a somewhat limited lifespan before service and parts are exhausted.

For the photographer that actively supports current manufacturers, MF seems to be more and more difficult to invest in. What are we currently left with? Phase One/Mamiya 645, Voigtlander still offer their folding MF, Linhof offer their panoramic formats, a handful of LF brands offer medium format backs, refurbished Kievs, the Diana and Holga.... I am sure I missed a couple of obvious ones, but it is saddening knowing that the list is getting shorter and shorter, especially as my currently owned cameras kick the bucket one by one.

I suppose many 35mm shooters could be in the same situation too, though having Leica has a beacon of future development and support helps immensely.

My primary question after all this moaning is how do you go about shooting MF in this scenario?

Is it better to just not worry so much about the future and and availability of parts and go back to shooting what I can find? (bearing in mind that it is significantly harder and more expensive to source these kind of cameras from an isolated area like New Zealand)

Is the logical solution to move (in my case return) to large format, whose manufacturers are increasing year after year, whose products are becoming cheaper and more readily available and whose influence, target audience and competition towards digital is continuing to grow?

Do I stick to my principles, not support brands that have (for whatever reason) abandoned MF and eagerly wait for potential Kickstarter opportunities or new product lines to open in the future?

I'm leaning towards thinking that my perspective has become too short and I am starting to sound like a salty badger but I would be interested to hear others' thoughts, especially those that have for whatever reason felt the need to move from their MF system due to a lack of support or confidence in their previous brand.
 

BrianShaw

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From one cynic to another: I think you are out of luck. Maybe time to find a new hobby.
 

MattKing

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I would be reluctant to start a business right now that depends on using medium format film cameras, although I understand that the latest offerings from Hasselblad have once again added a film back option for one or more of their digital bodies.
But for personal photography, I am happy to rely on the cameras I have now, and the ones that I could obtain in the foreseeable future if my current cameras become un-repairable.
I'm hoping to manage at least another couple of decades of doing this. Why should I deny myself that much fun by quitting now?
 

Dan Fromm

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Hmm. Do you mean to say that you shoot MF to support manufacturers rather than because using MF makes sense for you?

You must be very wealthy.
 

faberryman

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The answer is easy. Find a medium format camera you like and shoot it while you can. No hand-wringing required. My Minolta Autocord is nearly 60 years old. I recently had it CLAed and there is no reason it should not last for as long as I want to shoot it. Ilford currently offers at least six different 120 films with no sign of phasing them out. So basically I think I'm in good shape for the foreseeable future.
 

Cholentpot

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No qualms for me. I shoot whatever I can get my twitchy fingers on. Finishing up some Lucky 400, got about 50 feet of expired 135 Tmax-400 to finish off and gonna burn the rest of my Portra 160 NC that expired back in '06 and am shooting at half speed, developing stand in a kit that's had +25 rolls though it already.

I'm not picky to say the least.
 
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Zyklus

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Thanks for the replies. Make no mistake, my passion for photography won't have diminished if I have to swap to another format. LF is back on the horizon, but MF will always be the format that I love most. I just think it is sad that an entire format is slowly disappearing, especially for commercial or long term project applications despite what seems like a growing interest by the photographic community for continued support.

Hmm. Do you mean to say that you shoot MF to support manufacturers rather than because using MF makes sense for you?

You must be very wealthy.

I think my issue is that MF makes the most sense for me but I have developed somewhat of a loyalty towards manufacturers that continue to support film and are willing to approach the risk of treading in a market that is constantly suffering from digital competition. It's a matter of principles. I'm far from wealthy.... else I'd just buy up every camera I could find for my camera of choice :D
 
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tomfrh

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There's a tonne of second hand gear out there available for a fraction of what it cost new. I can't see it drying up anytime soon. If you want to keep shooting it you'll be able to.
 

BrianShaw

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For the most part, the manufacturers toward whom you feel loyalty have no loyalty to us.. with the exception of a few film companies. They have abandon us because the market does not generate profit... and has not for more than a decade. If you want to shoot MF (or LF) then shoot whatever you can. There really aren't many choices, especially if one is to use "loyalty" and "principles" as the basis.
 

Alan W

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How old are you?I am 48 and since the digital revolution made MF cheaply available I have bought,used and sold a lot of stuff.I have settled on a Mamiya 7 with 3 lenses and I also use a Pentax 645n with 4 lenses.These are my only remaining MF cameras.I don't know how long I'll be around but I do expect these two cameras to last a good many years more.If they don't I'll buy a working Mamiya 7II or a working Pentax 645nii.I won't sweat it in the meantime.I do see your point but availability of New MF lines or the lack thereof should not discourage you from enjoying what's available now.As for film,I agree with you and also use plenty of Ilford products,always have.I do like Tri x,though!
 

paul ron

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pick a well known and redily available camera(s) and build up your system. film cameras arent being made nor supported by their manufacturers anymore. there a few reliable repairmen out there that can service most anything but they are becoming scarce as the years go by. figure on servicing whatever you get so you at least have a fresh start with an over hauled camera system.

mf cameras need to be used... they were designed for heavy professional use. just storing it will just waste your cla money. race horses need to run or they die.

ill shoot film as long as its available and perhaps make my own when it comes down to mad max days.

.
 

canuhead

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I just think it is sad that an entire format is slowly disappearing, especially for commercial or long term project applications despite what seems like a growing interest by the photographic community for continued support.

sorry but I don't see this doom and gloom happening for a very long time tbh. Cameras can be repaired and film will be around for years imo. I don't see medium format going anywhere soon, not with several good and relatively young, Hasselblad technicians out there, for example.

Use the camera that you feel comfortable using and don't worry about the future. When the day comes, you adjust.
 

Alan Gales

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Buy yourself a Mamiya TLR. They are built like tanks and have a great reputation for reliability. They have no electronics to go bad. Wedding photographers used them for years. Cameras and lenses are both inexpensive. Get one in lightly used condition and have the camera and lenses CLA'd. They should last you for many years.
 

MattKing

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... and don't you find it interesting that nobody seems to know who that one lone backing paper vendor is?
Not particularly.
I'm not sure that anyone here (who isn't constrained by confidentiality agreements) would have ready access to the identity of a highly specialized paper supplier.
It would be different if the supplier also produced and marketed under their own name products intended for retail, and made public their contract manufacture of photographic backing paper.
Someone fully involved in the specialty paper market might be able to find out - anyone here fit that description?
 

Down Under

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Alan Gales 9#13), you have it spot-on. With MF (and 35mm as I see increasing numbers of younger photographers putting aside their D cameras and going mechanical, ie Nikon Fs, Nikkormats, early Canons, Pentax KMs etc), KISS is the way to go.

Time passes, things change. In the 1960s when I first got seriously into photography and started shooting for newspapers, everyone in Eastern Canada seemed to be using Speed Graphics or Yashica TLRs. Then Mamiya TLRs. Roll on to 1970, and one by one, Nikon 35mm crept into the scene. By 1985 it was 35mm auto everything. I was always a little behind, being ona tight budget and so preferring to buy secondhand gear,which in those days meant 10 year old cameras. I got into Rolleiflex TLRs in the early 70s and then Nikkormats. Still have them. They work as good as new. Accessories nowadays cost pennies on the dollar. Film costs have gone up, but buying in bulk and self-loading significantly reduces the costs.

As the decades rolled on one by one,I got into my career (architecture) and bought accordingly. After retiring in 2012, I sold off the Hasselblad kit (the 500CM I bought new, lenses and other bits used) as I found myself moving into architectural image making less influenced by rigid lines. Two GA645i cameras (one the wide angle) served me well for a few years, but in 2016 I also sold them off, preferring to concentrate less on auto-everything cameras and more on the old fashioned formal style of shooting of my younger years, shooting with greater care and taking more time to properly compose and meter (by hand).

Now my life's wheel has come full circle and I use my Rollei TLRs for most of my photography. Nowadays I take out my Nikkormats more often than I have in the last 15 years. I'm preparing to shortly offload my Contax G1 kit and various small 1950s German folding cameras I've had lying around the house for the last twenty or so years. Unusually for me, I'm also shooting much less with my (dreaded) 'D' Nikons, and when I take those out I often match them with a Nikkormat to enable me to swap lenses, filters etc when I prefer film for a detailed 'arty' B&W image.

In Australia where I life, film costs have gone through the roof in recent years, especially for 120 roll. Formerly I would have said "oh, well!" and ordered OL from overseas, but film prices in Asia are also going up, and the associated costs of ordering OL from North America, the deteriorating value of the South Pacific Peso (the A$), and the necessity to order in bulk in order to get any meaningful discounts after all costs and currently exchange are considered, mean it's no longer really profitable for me to get my films from across the Big Bathtub.

In disposing of my MF kits I took into consideration the costs involved in maintaining the 'blad kit with all its fiddly bits needing to be serviced in a high-cost market, and the likelihood of my fully automatic GAs failing and either requiring expensive repairs or having to be turned into shelf queens due to lack of parts. The Rolleis are fully mechanical and even though my trio of TLRs date to 1962, 1969 and 1972, they continue to function as new with minimal servicing (in fact the oldest Rolleiflex I have has been serviced one time only in 55 years, this being in 2001 when I also had a new/old exposure meter installed in it). Over the years I have also built up a large collection of accessories for my TLRs by purchasing them one by one, mostly from Ebay.

All this to say in so many words, a little intelligent planning will see you well if you plan to continue using your MF gear for some time in future. Like owners of old cars, buying a second body for spare parts will sometimes make good sense.
 

Sirius Glass

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Welcome to APUG

Instead of complaining that no MF cameras are in production, enjoy what there is now and how much more inexpensive they are compared to the original costs. There are plenty of Hasselblads, lenses, accessories and service for all of us.
 

removed account4

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My primary question after all this moaning is how do you go about shooting MF in this scenario?

i don't shoot MF often, just a roll back. the way i see it is
that we are lucky to have film, and we are lucky to have a huge used marketplace.
don't worry about new equipment, just pick on a system and use it and buy used. regarding product to shoot
we live in weird times. just enjoy what you can get or take up a larger format and learn the art of making your own
light sensitive materials. it will soon be 1880 all over again. only the hearty will survive and we will most likely
only have a few pre made things to choose from, a TRASH heap of used equipment
and photography will be distilled down to the people who have the will to mostly make their own materials ...
the cellphone camera will pretty much do the rest of everything else because it is good enough for most everyone.
life is too short to moan about all this stuff. just buy some film and paepr and use your camera, and when it breaks
rinse and repeat ...
 

Brian Schmidt

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Hello.

I am honestly kind of glad that things are the way they are.

Anybody who honestly wants a decent film camera can get such a camera. Supply is high from the past century of camera production but demand is low from the advent of digital. Though there aren't hundreds of filmstocks to choose from there are a good couple dozen anyway, including anything from films marketed with the cheapest of cameras to very fine films. A roll of Arista/Foma in 120, though not generally considered the finest (though not too bad either), can had for less than the price of a hamburger. Darkroom equipment is cheaper yet. Also since film photography is somewhat rare these days you've got an instant friend if they happen to have the same interest.

On the subject of devoted manufacturers, the best encouragement is high sales. Nobody will quit making anything so long as there is demand.

Have a good day,
Brian
 

David T T

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The new MF camera market is dry partially because studio /wedding/event photographers put so many of them on the used market. Most of these cameras are built like tanks! My RB is over 40 years old and still going strong, and I have a backup body for parts. Why would I spend $2-3k (10 x the cost) on a new camera that in all likelihood the RB will outlast? :whistling:

Keep shooting MF film, and one day they'll make the cameras again. WE decide what stays and what goes.
 

eddie

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If you spend your time worrying about how you're going to make your photographs tomorrow, you'll miss the opportunity to make photographs today. The death knell for film photography has been ringing for 20 years, without the predicted burial. It lives because it offers something entirely different from the technology meant to replace it. Buy film, paper, cameras, lenses... Que sera sera...
 

RalphLambrecht

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I will preface this by apologising if my first post (long time lurker) on these forums comes across as doom and gloom, however it is something that has come to concern me very much.

Ten years ago I had zero qualms about shooting whatever photographic equipment I could get my hands on. I wasn't loyal to any one brand or format and would experiment, buy and sell my gear on a whim and be generally happy with my results. It was a nice feeling having the knowledge that formats like medium format cameras, lenses, accessories and servicing were all plentiful and so I was secure in the knowledge that when I did find my dream camera, I would (hopefully) be able to rely on the support of its manufacturer to be able to invest in a system that could last a lifetime.

Nowadays, my perspective regarding photography has changed and narrowed, and with a regretful amount of cynicism I find myself only really comfortable supporting manufacturers that can still support me. Ilford is a prime example; a company whose film and paper I now exclusively use as it feels nice putting my money and support towards a brand that still truly has a vision in supporting film. Fuji on the opposite end of the spectrum prove time and time again that they have zero interest in continual support towards film and film shooters; I no longer touch their products.

Similarly, the number of camera manufacturers that still offer new medium format film products has largely dried up; Hasselblad have cut their V/500 series; Mamiya have cut their RZ and rangefinder lines; Fuji have recently cut their GF670; Horseman and Plaubel have to the best of my knowledge stopped production; Rollei is gone; Pentax too. We are becoming ever reliant on second hand gear that is rapidly increasing in price and will have a somewhat limited lifespan before service and parts are exhausted.

For the photographer that actively supports current manufacturers, MF seems to be more and more difficult to invest in. What are we currently left with? Phase One/Mamiya 645, Voigtlander still offer their folding MF, Linhof offer their panoramic formats, a handful of LF brands offer medium format backs, refurbished Kievs, the Diana and Holga.... I am sure I missed a couple of obvious ones, but it is saddening knowing that the list is getting shorter and shorter, especially as my currently owned cameras kick the bucket one by one.

I suppose many 35mm shooters could be in the same situation too, though having Leica has a beacon of future development and support helps immensely.

My primary question after all this moaning is how do you go about shooting MF in this scenario?

Is it better to just not worry so much about the future and and availability of parts and go back to shooting what I can find? (bearing in mind that it is significantly harder and more expensive to source these kind of cameras from an isolated area like New Zealand)

Is the logical solution to move (in my case return) to large format, whose manufacturers are increasing year after year, whose products are becoming cheaper and more readily available and whose influence, target audience and competition towards digital is continuing to grow?

Do I stick to my principles, not support brands that have (for whatever reason) abandoned MF and eagerly wait for potential Kickstarter opportunities or new product lines to open in the future?

I'm leaning towards thinking that my perspective has become too short and I am starting to sound like a salty badger but I would be interested to hear others' thoughts, especially those that have for whatever reason felt the need to move from their MF system due to a lack of support or confidence in their previous brand.
I'm counting on my Hasselblad gear to last longer than I will.
 
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