Cyanotype paper green/blue before exposure

[natash]

Hi ! I've been making cyanotype prints for a few years now, but for some reason the past two batches have been a bust. The paper once coated isn't the same yellow color I'm used to. I moved recently to a new country so I'm wondering if maybe it's because of the hard/very calcium water ? Otherwise I'm a bit lost. I've been using the Jacquard Cyanotype set for years and haven't had this issue. I'm guessing its either because i've been mixing my chemicals in the sink, somehow adding incorrect water amounts, or maybe there's too much light (although I'm always mixing at night). Any insight/advice/help would be much appreciated !! Thank you!

 

[Don_ih]

You should try distilled water. However, if you're using different paper, there might be something in it contaminating the chemistry (unlikely). Unless the electrical light you mix and coat by is giving off a lot of UV light (also unlikely), it should be incapable of fogging the coated paper.

 

[natash]

You should try distilled water. However, if you're using different paper, there might be something in it contaminating the chemistry (unlikely). Unless the electrical light you mix and coat by is giving off a lot of UV light (also unlikely), it should be incapable of fogging the coated paper.

Yeah I'll give that a shot thank you! Because it does seem like directly from the mixed chemicals, it's already a bit blue-ish/green, like the liquid on the brushes

 

[VinceInMT]

I got back into cyanotype a year or so ago and experienced that same thing, the sensitized turning dark before exposure. For me, it was the type of paper that was responsible. In fact, I ended up cutting swatches from a wide variety of papers, coating them, and then checking their color after a time. What I discovered was that some papers contain something that reacts with the sensitized and renders it dark. For example, brown craft paper turned a dark blue almost immediately. The least reactive were watercolor papers.

Recently I’ve been making cyanotypes on Stonehenge paper. To a degree it also reacts this way but seems to take 24 hours or so. Since this is my choice to draw on after I have the cyanotype in place, I make the exposure as soon as the sensitized is dry. The only downside is that Stonehenge isn’t designed to be washed so a gentle hand and minimal wash is necessary as it helping it dry flat.

 

[JNP]

It might be calcium carbonate (I think that is what they put in the paper slurry to make it pH neutral?), that stuff always messes with my paper. if that is your problem you can put your paper in plain white distilled vinegar. it will fizz and acidify your paper. People always say to mx everything with distilled water too. Im not a chemist and never do it, but it always sounds like a good idea if there are persistent problems.

 

[BrianShaw]

Try sizing the paper before sensitizing. An easy way is to spray with laundry spray starch. Then completely dry before sensitizing.

Question: how long are you holding your sensitized paper between dry and exposed?

 

[Patrick Robert James]

Cyanotype needs to be in an acid environment. So acidify the paper. You can acidify the cyanotype mix as well. I use sulfamic acid to acidify paper and citric acid for the mix and developing.

 

[natash]

Try sizing the paper before sensitizing. An easy way is to spray with laundry spray starch. Then completely dry before sensitizing.

Question: how long are you holding your sensitized paper between dry and exposed?

Hi ! Thanks for the response, I'm waiting basically 12 hours (midnight to noon the next day )

 

[natash]

Cyanotype needs to be in an acid environment. So acidify the paper. You can acidify the cyanotype mix as well. I use sulfamic acid to acidify paper and citric acid for the mix and developing.

Hi ! Thanks for the response, can I ask how you're acidifying the paper, like a soak and then dry it?

 

[gone]

I can't help the op, but thanks for the idea of using the cyanotype for a basic value or underpainting, and then drawing on top of it. There's some Ilford matte FB papers here that will be developed using alternate methods, and I'd like to try this.

 

[fgorga]

Hi ! I've been making cyanotype prints for a few years now, but for some reason the past two batches have been a bust. The paper once coated isn't the same yellow color I'm used to. I moved recently to a new country so I'm wondering if maybe it's because of the hard/very calcium water ? Otherwise I'm a bit lost. I've been using the Jacquard Cyanotype set for years and haven't had this issue. I'm guessing its either because i've been mixing my chemicals in the sink, somehow adding incorrect water amounts, or maybe there's too much light (although I'm always mixing at night). Any insight/advice/help would be much appreciated !! Thank you!

If the sensitizer solution is the proper color before you coat the paper it is unlikely that the problem is the with the solution. However, if the solution is not the correct color before you apply it to the paper, you might have a "water problem" and using purified water might help.

If the solution goes on as bright lemon yellow and then turns green or blue-green after coating the problem is likely your paper.

Cheap paper is not friendly for many alt photo processes. Using a good quality cotton or alpha-cellulose based paper will save you a lot of headaches. This post (of mine) may be of use to you in this regard: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/paper-for-cyanotypes-an-incomplete-survey.175743/. Do note that I "develop" my cyanotypes using 25% vinegar rather than plain water as is traditional and this may well affect the results I report therein.

Some papers that are useful when freshly coated (i.e. within an hour or two) of coating but they turn green over longer periods (several hours or days). Very few papers are, in my experience, usable more than a day or two after coating.

I hypothesize that the stability of papers coated with cyanotype sensitizer is, in part, related to their lignin content. Using cotton paper (which naturally has no liginin) or alpha-cellulose (wood pulp treated to remove the lignin) paper minimizes this issue.

Brown craft paper, as an another respondent mentioned, turns dark blue immediately upon coating with cyanotype sensitizer. This cheap, low grade, paper is very high in lignin content.

As, yet another respondent suggested, you can try sizing the paper with starch or gelatin. Coating the paper with a size will somewhat protect the cyanotype sensitizer from the "raw" paper and thus help your issue. However, this is often more work than is necessary. Just finding another paper that works for cyanotype is often simpler.

Other respondents suggest that the carbonate buffer in many papers might be the problem and therefore that pre-treating the paper with acid might help. While it is true that alkalinity in general (and carbonate buffer specifically) are problematic with cyanotype (and many other alt processes), this is unlikely to be the cause of your problem.

Rather, alkali causes sort of the opposite problem to what you are having... weak, low contrast images. This is because the Prussian blue that forms a cyanotype image is susceptible to alkaline hydrolysis.

If you eventually find that weak or disappearing as you wash them cyanotype images are a problem, these two posts (of mine) might be of interest: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threa...on-of-paper-for-traditional-cyanotype.176816/ and https://www.photrio.com/forum/threa...the-washing-of-traditional-cyanotypes.177366/.

 

[VinceInMT]

I can't help the op, but thanks for the idea of using the cyanotype for a basic value or underpainting, and then drawing on top of it.

Here’s one in a series I am currently working on. I sketched the location of where the cyanotypes would go and then masked around them with Frogtape. I shot the legs on 35mm and then printed on to Litho film but developed in Dektol 1:10 to keep contrast from getting out of hand. Then I contact printed those positives to get a bunch of negatives which I taped to a sheet of glass and lined things up over the masked drawing paper. I made some registration marks so I’d know where the glass would sit on the paper. After that I applied the sensitizer and let it dry. Then it was a sun exposure, a wash in citric acid, a water wash, and then use a hand roller to get rid of the extra water. I let the paper dry on a screen until it’s about 80% dry when I roll it up in about a 6-inch diameter. This helps it dry with less rippling. After that I do the drawing in graphite and then the pastel. It is 15”x22” on Stonehenge paper.

 

[Ruebellevue]

I’m teaching a nature study course for middle school students and introducing Cyanotypes. I’m new to Cyanotypes but have darkroom experience from medium format and pinhole photography.
I’ve been dying to do this and thought what fun to do this with students!

I will be doing the prep work to coat the paper myself, but it begs many questions as I read about paper and varied results along with water harness/softness.

I’d love to just order ready coated paper for our first go. Does anyone have recommendations?

The Sun prints paper available on Amazon and Dick Blick seem to have inconsistent reviews, so I’m prepared (mentally) to coat the paper myself unless someone can link me to a reliable source! (Please refer away with links!!)

I really want to offer a reliable first impression.

What I have on hand is the Jacquard Cyanotype chemical powder kit and DickBlick Sulphite white drawing paper with sizing, https://www.dickblick.com/products/blick-white-sulphite-drawing-paper/

Has anyone used this kind of paper before for Cyanotypes? I have a ream and would I’ve to use it to for our learning efforts.
It is sized and acid-free.
Will I need to spritz it with vinegar?

I’m a bit overwhelmed.
I’m reading through a few books by professional artists, but a lot of the paper recommended is too nice for experimenting.

I’m thrilled to rejoin the photo community here.
TIA!

 

[VinceInMT]

The paper you choose can have an impact on your results as some papers will fight against the process due to the buffering in the paper-making process. Watercolor papers are generally OK but can be expensive. In the photo above I used Stonehenge because I prefer the “tooth” it has for drawing on it after I put the cyanotype on it so I can at least say that Stonehenge works OK. I buy it at Blick. At about $5 for a 22x30 sheet which is easily cut down to some thing smaller, it’s fairly economical.

 

[fgorga]

Carefully check out response #11 above, especially the links therein. I have done lots of testing of papers for cyanotype and the need to acid pretreatment of paper all reported there.

The bottom line is that the carbonate buffers in many papers aren't good for many alt processes, including cyanotype. So, for cyanotype, one either needs to choose paper carefully, acid pretreat paper, or develop your cyanotype using 25% acetic acid.

With respect to the specific paper you mentioned, I doubt it is a great choice, but I have not tried it. The good news is that cheap papers often have little or no buffer. However, drawing papers are not generally a good choice for alt processes because they have little or no sizing and thus are too absorbent. You can size it yourself but I'd rather pay a bit more and get watercolor or printmaking papers sized at the mill than spend time and money sizing a cheap paper.

I agree with @VinceInMT that Stonehenge is a nice paper for cyanotype. Another, inexpensive paper that works for cyanotype is Fabriano Unica. I also agree that buying 22x30 inch sheets and cutting them down is a good approach.

I buy most of my paper for alt processes in large sheets from Acuity Papers ( https://www.acuitypapers.com/Default.asp). They are a small company who are a real pleasure to work with. I have no relationship with them except as a satisfied customer.

 

[koraks]

However, drawing papers are not generally a good choice for alt processes because they have little or no sizing and thus are too absorbent.

I've made many successful cyanotypes on all kinds of drawing paper, ranging from fairly sturdy 160gsm papers all the way down to flimsy 60gsm sheets so thin you can see through them. While the latter require a lot of care in processing, the heavier drawing papers I found to print perfectly fine - even with their carbonate buffers that they likely all have.

My recommendation would be to head out to a local arts supply store and pick up a dozen or so papers and try them out. If none work, go get some more, but odds are that if you buy 5 papers, 1 or 2 will work just fine for regular cyanotype. It's the least picky of all processes.

Yes, if you want to get the absolute best maximum density etc, you'll have to find the best paper, and/or pre-treat papers etc. But to get nice prints in an educational setting, many, many papers will do just fine. I very rarely make cyanotypes anymore these days, but a few months ago I did some when playing with staining developers. Here's a print I made in that process:

It's made in generic copier paper, 80gsm - the kind you pick up in any stationary shop in 500 sheet packs. This is not to show that copier paper is somehow the best choice, but to demonstrate that paper selection doesn't have to be intimidating.
(The low contrast in the print is because it was made with a negative that only consisted of a dye stain image - all silver was bleached out. Good contrast was just as easy to obtain with this paper).

I’m a bit overwhelmed.

I understand, and we're not helping. I apologize.

My recommendations:
* Buy some potassium ferricyanide and ferric ammonium citrate. Any shop is fine. A ready-made 'kit' is also fine if you don't mind paying the premium.
* Buy a jar of citric acid and some cleaning vinegar from the supermarket/drugstore for acidifying the wash water. It takes just a pinch of citric acid or a small squirt of vinegar. Tap water is fine.
* Get a range of affordable papers from the arts supplies store. Pick papers that appeal to you. Doesn't matter if they're watercolor, etching, drawing papers etc. Drawing papers are generally affordable and many print just fine. Yes, there will be differences, and some may be duds, but odds are you'll hit upon something that does work right out of the box.
* Buy a brush. Pretty much any kind will do. A 2" or 3" generic painting brush from the hardware store will do fine. A foam brush will also work. No need for expensive hake brushes etc.
* Use a picture frame for initial tests. Or just a sheet of glass weighted down on the edges. Later on you can always upgrade to a proper contact frame.
* The sun is a good light source. Printing at night or on cloudy days works fine with a cheap UV floodlight in the 50-300W range. These probably start at around $35 or so these days. (e.g. something like this)

In short: keep it simple and just get started! Don't overthink this. Just get going, experiment, see what you run into and then solve it. Don't aim for getting it right the first time. There's no need. The fun of cyanotypes is that it's a process that works well with humble, affordable materials.

 

[VinceInMT]

....In short: keep it simple and just get started! Don't overthink this. Just get going, experiment, see what you run into and then solve it. Don't aim for getting it right the first time. There's no need. The fun of cyanotypes is that it's a process that works well with humble, affordable materials.

This is excellent advice and I fully concur. Just assembling the materials you need and establishing a workflow will expose (pun intended) any deficiencies in your process. When you see your first blue image you'll be quite rewarded.

 

[fgorga]

This is excellent advice and I fully concur. Just assembling the materials you need and establishing a workflow will expose (pun intended) any deficiencies in your process. When you see your first blue image you'll be quite rewarded.

Fully agree!

 

[fgorga]

I've made many successful cyanotypes on all kinds of drawing paper, ranging from fairly sturdy 160gsm papers all the way down to flimsy 60gsm sheets so thin you can see through them. While the latter require a lot of care in processing, the heavier drawing papers I found to print perfectly fine - even with their carbonate buffers that they likely all have.

Interesting , when I have tried really cheap paper they soaked up huge amounts of sensitizer all the way through. I don't remember if I exposed the paper or how the print looked if I did.

Your example is certainly just fine.

 

[Daniela]

I’d love to just order ready coated paper for our first go. Does anyone have recommendations?

I have used the Sunprint kit from amazon with kids ages 5-17 and never had an issue. The only extra thing you need to get is acrylic sheets because the kit only comes with one.

For my personal cyanotypes and with adults, I coat the cheapest watercolor paper I find here (it's a store called Action. The European members will know it) and I've had no issues. I use it with the Jacquard Cyanotype kit.

Honestly, planning group sessions is stressful in itself. Just go with the ready-made stuff. If you're weary, just give one sheet a try beforehand. By the way, the kids will love it no matter what!

 

[Patrick Robert James]

I agree with the others. Just do it.

Most of the cyanotype talk about methods and papers can be a bit daunting to a newbie, but keep in mind most of the people talking about the advanced stuff are people interested in making the highest quality cyanotype possible. You should just concentrate on getting an image and having fun if you are doing it for the kids.

 

[koraks]

when I have tried really cheap paper they soaked up huge amounts of sensitizer all the way through.

Oh, it sure does! But I never found this to be a problem. The minor issue is that the thin papers tend to wrinkle a bit upon drying. A decent contact printing frame takes care of this! The only manner I've seen papers really not work with cyanotype is if the Prussian blue forms without any exposure. In these cases it's a true chemical incompatibility. All the other cases worked for me, with varying degrees of aesthetic qualities. Some papers do give far better dmax than others, and I suppose acidifying helps in those cases where the 'blacks' are weak. I never bothered, though, and just used papers that worked in the state I bought them

 

[nmp]

Yeah...I too recommend pre-made papers (don't go by the reviews on Amazon etc, they are not a reliable indicator anymore I think.) I bought these some time ago just to see what they are:

Nature Print Paper 5" x 7"

Item Contents: 5"x7" Nature Print Paper quantity selected above. Item Description: Beautiful, permanent, white on blue prints are made possible in a matter of minutes with Nature Print Paper and your creativity. Our non-toxic, classroom tested paper has been a great source of fun and for all...

natureprintpaper.com

I believe they are the original manufacturer of the so-called Sun prints. Anyway, they behave a little different than the typical A+B classic chemistry that you would get from Jacquard. The paper comes in a bluish shade. When exposed, it lightens up, not darken. When "developed" in water, the lighter exposed areas get slightly darker and the darker unexposed areas wash away revealing white underneath. Exposed areas continue to darken over a period of time to get a nice blue image.

:Niranjan.