Curtains for Us All

thuggins · Feb 10, 2020

Thru the years I have been scrupulously avoiding older focal plane shutter cameras, due to issues with the cloth shutter curtains. Somewhat by accident I have found myself the owner of a Varex that is very nice, but has pinholes in the shutter curtains. An extensive search of repairmen has failed to uncover anyone who will replace these. A couple "could" or "used to" do it, but were not interested. Others were "always on the lookout for NOS", which just seems like nonsense.

Are we condemned to lose all of our focal plane cameras at some point? I've been able to find a nylon blackout cloth that looks like the perfect material, but don't have the skill set for that level of repair. Is it really that difficult to fabricate shutter curtains?

StepheKoontz · Feb 10, 2020

thuggins said:
I've been able to find a nylon blackout cloth that looks like the perfect material, but don't have the skill set for that level of repair. Is it really that difficult to fabricate shutter curtains?

It depends on the camera. Some are designed to use generic cloth that is glued or sewn to the end attachment points i.e Barnack type cameras. Others, the curtains were "manufactured" with metal strips swedged onto the ends of the curtains as their attachments, and I am told get destroyed trying to reuse them. Unless there is a supply source, it becomes very difficult to duplicate this manufacturing process or fabricate these type of curtains and them be reliable. The guy who restored my early Pentax AP (the goto Pentax guy at www.pentaxs.com) relies on cheap later type donor bodies with usable curtains when a valuable early camera needs them. I would prefer them be new, he explained to me that's really not an option. For an old Asihaflex I have with badly wrinkled curtains, he said there just aren't any replacements available. At least that is my understanding of this issue.

Ian Grant · Feb 10, 2020

Well I have a roll of shutter cloth, and another coming next month . . . . . . . .

Ian

cramej · Feb 10, 2020

thuggins said:
Thru the years I have been scrupulously avoiding older focal plane shutter cameras, due to issues with the cloth shutter curtains.

Ummm, what issues? The millions of cloth focal plane shuttered cameras out there still zipping along would beg to disagree with you. You could still even avoid them with a metal focal plane shutter if you wanted to take little risk .

BobD · Feb 10, 2020

I have repaired pinholes in bellows using "liquid rubber" products such as Plasti-Dip and Liquid Electrical Tape and it worked fine. I have not tried it on shutter curtains but I would try it if I had a shutter curtain with pinholes. I have read several comments online from people who have used these types of products on shutter curtains who reported they worked fine.

BTW, I am aware that shutter curtains and bellows are not the same thing so there is no need to inform me of that fact. Thanks.

jim10219 · Feb 10, 2020

BobD said:
I have repaired pinholes in bellows using "liquid rubber" products such as Plasti-Dip and Liquid Electrical Tape and it worked fine. I have not tried it on shutter curtains but I would try it if I had a shutter curtain with pinholes. I have read several comments online from people who have used these types of products on shutter curtains who reported they worked fine.

BTW, I am aware that shutter curtains and bellows are not the same thing so there is no need to inform me of that fact. Thanks.

I used them to fix about 100 pinholes in my Graflex Anniversary Speed Graphic's focal plane shutter. It worked really well, eventually.

That fabric has two sides. The outside, facing the film, is coated in some kind of rubber. Applying the liquid vinyl (I used Plastidip) to that side didn't hold for very long. However, applying it to the inside, the side that faces the lens, worked very well and has held up for years. That side of the shutter is just fabric. I also coated the fabric, both sides, in lemon pledge, which made the rubber and fabric more supple and less brittle. It took a week to apply, because I'd have to do it in sections, let it soak, and then wipe off the excess. Overall, it was very time consuming, but it did work without issue once completed.

Whether or not that will work will likely depend on the fabric you're applying it too. I discovered with bellows, the Plastidip works well on small spots. However, if you have to cover large spots, then the liquid vinyl comes in contact with itself when you fold up the bellows, and it wants to stick to itself, especially if the camera gets hot. So I had to replace the bellows on that camera. With the focal plane shutter, it rolls up, instead of accordion folds, so you don't have to worry about the vinyl coming in contact with other vinyl patches, so long as you apply it to only one side.

I've seen replacement shutter fabric for sale, but it's never long enough for a 4x5 press camera, and it's not cheap. I've also heard of people making their own using fine weave fabric and impregnating it with liquid vinyl. Here's a link to an article about a guy doing that:
http://licm.org.uk/livingImage/Project06.html

M Carter · Feb 10, 2020

I've found the black permatex gasket material to be great for bellows repair, and it comes in a small tube. Don't know if it would suit a cloth shutter, but the stuff's been good to me, including sealing up my 6x6 pinhole-conversion butchery!

shutterfinger · Feb 10, 2020

1. The shutter curtains in Graflex SLR's and Speed Graphics was .007 inch thick when new. Player Piano restoration supply companies carry bellows cloth that is rubber coated nylon and rubber coated cotton that are .007 inch thick and work well for shutter curtains in these cameras. There is no reason the material cannot be used in 35mm cameras as well.
35mm cameras have plastic or metal ends formed on them to provide the light seal between the first and second curtains. This formed on or crimped on pieces can be difficult if not impossible to replace.
2. Golden Heavy Body Acrylic Artist Paint #1040 Carbon Black https://www.goldenpaints.com/products/colors/heavy-body diluted no more than 1:1 with water and painted on in thin layers will patch any pin holes or completely cover the backing material of cloth shutters. Early cloth shutters were silk and later nylon. I have used this on several curtains including stripping the defective rubber coating and painting the entire shutter curtain. 2 to 3 thin coats is usually needed to make the curtain light tight, does not build up causing the curtain to be too thick and the paint remains flexible when dry and does not flake off. Use a fine bristle economy artist brush about 1/2 inch wide to paint the curtain with. With care one can paint the entire curtain in a 35mm camera without removing the curtain either on the rubber side or the cloth side. If painting the entire shutter it will be best to paint the cloth side as the rubber may continue to flake off. Remove the shutter from the camera to strip the rubber. Soak the curtain in lacquer thinner for about 1 minute to soften the rubber then scrap it off with a flat edge putty knife held 90° to the curtain being careful not to tear the curtain. Lacquer thinner will likely damage the plastic light seal between the first and second curtains so be very careful at those ends.

4season · Feb 10, 2020

shutterfinger said:
Player Piano restoration supply companies carry bellows cloth that is rubber coated nylon and rubber coated cotton that are .007 inch thick and work well for shutter curtains in these cameras. There is no reason the material cannot be used in 35mm cameras as well.

Very interesting source for rubberized cloth, I may try it for bellows-making.

But for now, rubberized silk (0.18mm) is available from Aki-Asahi and eBay vendor "nobbysparrow" and when I inquired with the latter, he was able to provide the larger size of cloth that I needed. Not sure why silk has been the traditional choice whereas I've never heard of cotton being used for this purpose: Maybe a combination of strength and low mass? I do note that rubberized silk fabric is extremely supple as well. The piece of rubberized nylon that I've got is slightly thicker, at 0.2 mm. Aki-Asahi specifically recommends against using rubberized nylon for medium format or smaller, but I didn't ask why.

4season · Feb 11, 2020

StepheKoontz said:
For an old Asihaflex I have with badly wrinkled curtains, he said there just aren't any replacements available. At least that is my understanding of this issue.

I'm still a novice at shutter-rebuilding, with one success under my belt (FED-2) and another in progress (Praktisix). I must have failed at least a half-dozen times with the first, often starting over from scratch and cutting a fresh set of curtains, and this was with the assistance of a how-to guide. Apparently the job is pretty easy once you have experience, but there's a definite learning curve involved which no amount of YouTube-watching can replace!

Extracting crimped, cemented, even riveted-on metal laths from the old curtains for reuse isn't particularly difficult, but no way a factory would want their techs doing this sort of thing when new factory spares were available and a whole lot quicker to install.

thuggins · Feb 13, 2020

Interesting comments, especially the fact that the curtain material is still available. So it does look like the real answer falls in line with one guy's response. It can be done, it is just a matter of the shop not wanting to go to the trouble to do it. Given the "aging out" of so many repairmen this seems unlikely to change. :-(

AgX · Feb 13, 2020

4season said:
I must have failed at least a half-dozen times with the first, often starting over from scratch and cutting a fresh set of curtains, and this was with the assistance of a how-to guide.

Any mishaps you might warn us about?

4season · Feb 13, 2020

AgX said:
Any mishaps you might warn us about?

Yes, any time you can use a rubber tool like this instead of a spanner wrench, do it!
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1223685-REG
The smallest cup will work on most film wind lever cap screws.

StepheKoontz · Feb 14, 2020

thuggins said:
It can be done, it is just a matter of the shop not wanting to go to the trouble to do it.

And possibly some repair folks had a bad experience in the past with repairs of this type failing and not willing to take that risk anymore? I could see replacing a curtain, reusing metal crimped on laths, not being as durable as the originals.

Jon Goodman · Feb 19, 2020

thuggins said:
Is it really that difficult to fabricate shutter curtains?

No, it isn't difficult. If you want to make your own curtains, find an old black umbrella--get one that isn't needed anymore because you're going to ruin it. It won't be silk, but honestly it doesn't have to be. Remove the cloth and find an area about the size you need which lies flat and isn't permanently creased. Then buy some SoSoft black (or lampblack) fabric paint. Please don't waste your time with other brands. Put release paper or waxed paper onto a flat board and attach it with thumbtacks. On top of this put your cloth, attach one end with thumbtacks and pull it tight and flat and attach the other end with thumbtacks. Then get a stainless steel metal ruler wider than the cloth you have. Pour some fabric paint on your cloth and spread it smoothly and evenly with your ruler. Your working time is probably only going to be 5 minutes. You will be able to see if you're getting it applied right and there is a bit of a learning curve here. If there are any pinholes in the cloth or if it is very old some paint may come through to the other side, but ideally the cloth should be waterproof and your paint should stay on one side. Then let your paint dry overnight. In a dark room, check your work with a light bulb. You shouldn't have any holes, but it is possible. Once the umbrella fabric has been coated in this fashion it should cut without leaving frayed edges.

Jon Goodman · Feb 19, 2020

This is how you want to hold your ruler while spreading the paint...at an angle and using the edge to make it the same thickness. Actually I use two hands but I had to hold the digital image maker with one hand.

Ray Morgenweck · Feb 21, 2020

I’ve used fabric glue mixed with an accumulation of lampblack applied over the leaks. If you can look at the curtain with a light behind it that makes it easier. Don’t build up any more thickness than needed and keep it smooth. After it dries smooth it nice and it should hold and work well.

awty · Feb 22, 2020

Speaking of curtains, does any one know which tension spring to tighten (opening or closing) when the right side of the print is under exposed.
It gets worse the faster the speed.

Ian Grant · Feb 22, 2020

Paul, there's a recent thread linking to a site with repair manuals, it's extremely comprehensive.

Ian

awty · Feb 22, 2020

Ian Grant said:
Paul, there's a recent thread linking to a site with repair manuals, it's extremely comprehensive.

Ian

Thanks Ian
I was just being lazy, pretty sure its the closing curtain. I know you can add tension to the opening curtain if under exposure is on the right side of the print.
Can you tell me which thread it is. Its just a Zorki 1 which is pretty easy to pull apart, even easier to just add a little weight to one of the curtain tensioners.

hashtagquack · Feb 22, 2020

Not sure if this goes against forum rules but here's a source for shutter curtain material.

https://www.thedarkroom.co.uk/tradi...220-x-300-x-0-2mm-8-66-x-11-8-x-0-007-in.html

rmdorman · Oct 7, 2020

Wanted to share a new thing I tried. Hope it’s not heresy but I stumbled on this while trying to do the acrylic resurfacing technique but wasn’t sure how to soak the curtain in paint thinner in order to scrape it clean first. Turns out you can kind of reliquify the rubberized coating in place and it’ll redeposit in the cracks and be light tight. Here’s a unprofessional little video:

AgX · Oct 9, 2020

The lacquer thinner applied basically is a mixture of Methanol, Acetone and an unnamed hydrocarbon.

But what compound is applied afterwards?

AgX · Oct 9, 2020

M Carter said:
I've found the black permatex gasket material to be great for bellows repair,...

I guess you mean "Supra Black Gasket Maker", a silicone rubber.

rmdorman · Oct 9, 2020

AgX said:
But what compound is applied afterwards?

Nothing new is applied, I just softened up or partly dissolved the old material, made multiple brush passes to redistribute a layer of it, and then let the thinner evaporate again. I laid the pledge on thick At the end to hopefully keep it soft but it doesn’t contribute to the opacity. Pledge is silicone and midweight paraffin and also helps clear my head after all the lacquer thinner . I’ll report back on how the curtain is holding up in a week or so to see if this is a durable solution.

Curtains for Us All

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