Current Stage of LF Photography (2020)

I still have a nice collection of LF hardware: two Sinar cameras and about 10 lenses, Pentax spot meters, with Jobo and Saunders 4x5 darkroom setup. But I've not used them for some time for various reasons. I remember I also have several packs of 4x5 films (most BW) and some very old papers.

The difference of LF vs 35mm now is mainly the sources of the film and the viability of color processing. How hard is to get new 4x5 films? I guess someone still make them? Any new 4x5 color films? Possible to send out the 4x5 color films to get processed?

Also I think LF is like other film section, it is almost a complete hobbyist market. Still any paid jobs?

Any experience is appreciated.

I mainly shoot black and white, Kodak and Fuji still make color films, albeit with less variety than in years past. There aren't all that many labs, at least compared to 15-20 years ago, but there's several places still processing the film. Black and white gives you lots more options, B&H, freestyle, ultrafine still have plenty of selection of film.

I'm not really aware of much commercial work being done on film in general these days, mostly just personal/artistic work by those of us who enjoy working with it

pwitkop said:

I mainly shoot black and white, Kodak and Fuji still make color films, albeit with less variety than in years past. There aren't all that many labs, at least compared to 15-20 years ago, but there's several places still processing the film. Black and white gives you lots more options, B&H, freestyle, ultrafine still have plenty of selection of film.

I'm not really aware of much commercial work being done on film in general these days, mostly just personal/artistic work by those of us who enjoy working with it

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Great to know. BW film processing should not be a problem since the chemicals are still cheap. Color film processing is another different story. It is not cost effective to buy the color chemical kits and process a few rolls of film. Probably the same with color printing.

Color printing is another thing that's a bit different, almost digital now for both proof prints and fine prints.

You have to look at the duality of photography... commerce and art. They don't often mix. Are people working with large format on commercial type jobs? No, the average client doesn't even know film is still made.

Are serious artists working with large format... yes, 100%.

As an MFA in Fine Arts, I always considered photography a form of artistic expression, rather than a 'hobby market' or 'commercial enterprise.' This may be the best time in the history of photography to do 8x10, as film cameras and darkroom equipment are more available to the artist than previously.

ic-racer said:

As an MFA in Fine Arts, I always considered photography a form of artistic expression, rather than a 'hobby market' or 'commercial enterprise.' This may be the best time in the history of photography to do 8x10, as film cameras and darkroom equipment are more available to the artist than previously.

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Wonder how regional 8x10 accessibility is. I've been in Southern Vancouver Island for the last few years, and I can go in to a number of shops to pick up a wide range of 4x5 gear and supplies, but I don't think I've seen anyone local stocking 8x10 film or a camera, and I've only ever seen a handful of holders. And when I was back in Atlantic Canada I don't remember seeing any large format gear or supplies locally, but I wasn't looking too hard for it before I left.

Of course online orders can level that playing field nicely, but enlargers [especially ones large enough for 8x10...] feel like a real hit and miss point.

Luckless said:

Wonder how regional 8x10 accessibility is. I've been in Southern Vancouver Island for the last few years, and I can go in to a number of shops to pick up a wide range of 4x5 gear and supplies, but I don't think I've seen anyone local stocking 8x10 film or a camera, and I've only ever seen a handful of holders. And when I was back in Atlantic Canada I don't remember seeing any large format gear or supplies locally, but I wasn't looking too hard for it before I left.

Of course online orders can level that playing field nicely, but enlargers [especially ones large enough for 8x10...] feel like a real hit and miss point.

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I just wonder those gears are permanently gone due to age and care, or stuck somewhere under-utilized. Personally I get 4 4x5 enlargers under-utilized in my basement.

Then it is the demand side. How much the "artist" want to spend to buy those equipment. Before the commercial guys can open the fat wallets to buy those gears in top condition, but probably not any more since there is little paid job with film work.

Hardly any commercial photography is done in film, except some wedding photography. And even most wedding photography is done digitally, except for some medium format. Generally, if you're doing it commercially, you want to limit your costs to maximize your profit. Most clients these days don't care much for film, and if they do, they'd rather have the "film look" applied in post than pay for actual film to be used. The only reason that some wedding photography is still done in film is because some people prefer their wedding photography to look like their parents and grandparents photos, which were all done in film. So it's a continuity and nostalgia thing for them.

Most hobbyist photographers either use digital or 35mm film, with some medium format out there. Large format photography is still pretty rare, with fine art and more serious hobbyists being the majority of users.

For me, finding large format film and finding places to develop it locally is impossible. None of the local places that still sell and develop film will process sheet film. However, thanks to the internet, finding a place to buy sheet and process sheet film is really easy. There are a ton of places online where you can buy those products and services.

I imagine the majority of people who shoot 8x10 film either scan it or contact print it. 8x10 enlargers are pretty rare, bulky, and expensive. However, 4x5 enlargers aren't too difficult to find, so a lot of 4x5 shooters will print their own. Decades ago it was quite a hassle to set up your own darkroom. These days, you can easily purchase everything you need used at a very reasonable price, and find all of the information you need online to figure out how to do it all at home. All you need is a room you can make dark. It doesn't even need to be a permanent room.

The beauty of large format these days is the gear is so cheap. I can buy a really nice 4x5 setup for about the same price as a nice 35mm or medium format setup. A Sinar F2 is about the same price as a Nikon F2 or Pentax 645. Even lenses are fairly cheap, with many high quality lenses in good shape being sold for under $300. The price of enlargers are all over the map, with some people finding 4x5 enlargers in good condition for free, and others paying several hundred for 35mm enlargers. Their prices seem to be more dictated by your local market, as they're hard to ship. About the only difference in price between 4x5 and 35mm is the cost of film, which is still pretty significant. 8x10 is also relatively cheap compared to what it once was, but 8x10 enlargers can be costly and difficult to find, as well as 8x10 cameras and lenses. Still, 8x10 film and developing isn't too hard to find if you look online.

What's kind of disappeared is 5x7. The cameras and lenses are still out there, but the selection of available 5x7 film is getting harder to find. It's not quite to 220 or 70mm levels, but they're definitely not as common as 35mm, 120, 4x5, or 8x10.

Color film is still readily available in 4X5, and generally 8x10 (now expensive), but not often in 5x7. The selection has thinned down some, though the remaining Kodak films seem to be better than ever. If you like darkroom color printing, a color neg film like Ektar or Portra will provide excellent results on several different Fuji Crystal Archive Papers. Kodak is reintroducing 4x5 chrome film; but that's hard to print in a darkroom unless you know how to make good internegatives. Fuji still makes a few chrome sheet films too, but no longer their best options for these kinds of purposes. There is a large variety of black and white sheet films being made in multiple sizes. Expect to mail or internet order most of these. It's a wonderful time to be doing large format photography and darkroom printing. No need to follow the digital lemmings.

How popular was 5x7 to begin with?

Given the rarity of gear for it I've seen compared to 4x5 and 8x10, I have the impression that it was kind of an odd-ball option from the start rather than a 'common stepping stone' from 4x5 to 8x10. Was it more popular outside of North America?

5x7 and its metric cousin were more popular in Europe and Canada than the USA. One can always cut down 8x10 film into two sheets of 5x7, or else place an advance order for a special factory cut of Kodak film from Canham, and wait till the minimum necessary quantity has been fulfilled. B&W 5x7 film is routinely available from Ilford. I love the proportion of 5x7, but stayed with 4x5 and 8x10 for convenience. One can always crop an image itself when printing, if a different proportion is wanted. And for high quality color printing where masking is needed, 8x10 accepts precise registration better, provided both the original film as well as the masks are on dimensionally-stable polyester base (not acetate).

5x7 has some real benefits - usable area is about 75% large than 4x5 and the somewhat rectangular aspect ratio is versatile. Many lenses covering 5x7 with some movement are not significantly larger than those used on 4x5 and are often the same lenses. Some 5x7 field cameras are comparable in size to 4x5 models and offer 4x5 reducing backs.

BW film availability is not a problem but off-the-shelf color film is scarce, as others have noted. 5x7 stainless steel developing tanks and reels are reliable and not very expensive, so processing BW in a home darkroom is quite straightforward. Color film processing is problematic, though, compared to 4x5.

On balance, there's a good argument that 5x7 is the sweet spot for BW work and 4x5 for most personal color work.

DREW WILEY said:

5x7 and its metric cousin were more popular in Europe and Canada than the USA. One can always cut down 8x10 film into two sheets of 5x7, or else place an advance order for a special factory cut of Kodak film from Canham, and wait till the minimum necessary quantity has been fulfilled. B&W 5x7 film is routinely available from Ilford. I love the proportion of 5x7, but stayed with 4x5 and 8x10 for convenience. One can always crop an image itself when printing, if a different proportion is wanted. And for high quality color printing where masking is needed, 8x10 accepts precise registration better, provided both the original film as well as the masks are on dimensionally-stable polyester base (not acetate).

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7x5 was never sold in Europe until quite recently. Here in the UK we had Half plate - 6½x4¾ and Whole plate - 8½x6½, and as you say Europe (ex UK) had the metric equivalent 13x18cm. One consequence 7x5 film holders are almost non existent second hand in the UK and Europe.

Half and Whole plate film was dropped in the late 1970's here in the UK. Kodak made a Half plate camera into the late 1960's the Kodak Specialist 2 and later metal bodied Specialist 3. The Specialist 2 was essentially an upgraded 2D designed for Scientific, Medical, Technical, as well as general use, surprisingly for a British made camera released in the late 1940's the trackbed has metric scales for accurate measuring and calculating the bellows extension factor.

It's also worth remembering that until the end of WWII we had no standards when it came to film and plate holders, the UK mostly used book form holders in field cameras as did some Reisekameras, others used single sided metal holders (Recomar style). Only Kodak Ltd here in the UK used the now standard fit 5x4, and 10x8 DDS film or plate holders before WWII. Luckily the Specialist 2 takes International fit Half plate holders which have the same outside dimensions as 7x5 holders, so I use my camera with 7x5.

I think it's probable Kodak Ltd supplied Ektachrome in Half plate or Whole plate to the big Mail Order catalogue companies, I went round the studios of one of the largest here in the UK in the mid 1970s, they employed approx 20 photographers plus assistants, had around 10 studios with multiple sets. Everything was shot to final print size and they had their own large E4 (later E6) processing lab, they shot huge quantities of film every day. There were maybe 5 or 6 large catalogue companies like them.

Ian

RedSun said:

Great to know. BW film processing should not be a problem since the chemicals are still cheap. Color film processing is another different story. It is not cost effective to buy the color chemical kits and process a few rolls of film. Probably the same with color printing.

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It costs $10 a roll to process color where I am (mail order). I can buy a kit for $40 and process far more than four rolls. It is not as cost effective as B&W, but it is still WAY cheaper for me to process my own C-41 or E-6.

I had two 8x10 field cameras, then switched to 4x10 for some strange reason and now have 5x7. Keith has more than enough choices for me in colour film and I usually shoot Ilford Delta 100 anyway, which is easy to get.
When I had 8x10, I had an enlarger but sold it. Now I can't enlarge BW 5x7, and I don't want to scan it, so I don't shoot it much. I do like the format though.

for HABS/HAER work on at the federal level its still LF ( 4x5 > to 8x10 )
otherwise its whatever you can convince your client to have you use.

It is easier to get 8x10 film now than 30 years ago. I can order some right now, don't have to leave my seat. It will be here in a few days. ebay is filled with 8x10 gear, just a click away from one's doorstep. These are great times for film photographers. In fact I got my brand-new Shen-Hao 8x10 right from the factory in China. Amazing how quickly it arrived to USA.

Guess is does depend on location. Color (neg and pos) 4x5 film is available for reasonable prices, and we have a local lab that dip and dunks up to 11x14 color.

I primarily use film for black and white. (4x5, 8x10.) I think that I'm more of a B&W photographer, versus color. I enjoy color, but if I'm looking for substance, I'm drawn towards B&W. In any event, I refuse to scan color negatives, given the orange masking issues. So if I want to photograph in color, I opt for direct imaging. (digital.)

I'll soon be taking a color workshop from Charles Cramer, who used to do much of his work in color transparency. I'll be interested to hear what he has to say about that option. (For his work now, I believe that he uses medium format digital.)

Well, Charlie will try to convert you to digital printing, just like Joe Holmes up the hill from me. I'm still convinced their own color work looked better done the previous darkroom way. I'm slowly converting my choice 8x10 color chromes onto 8x10 contact internegatives on Portra because I'm getting exceptional results from that printing onto chromogenic RA4 Fuji papers. But there is a slightly steep learning curve to that. No one does it commercially anymore, and seemingly never did it well. If you want something done right, you have to do it yourself. I don't digitally print anything - it would be a step backwards.

DREW WILEY said:

Well, Charlie will try to convert you to digital printing . . .

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Charlie won't need to. That train's already left the station. I enjoy digital photography and its technology. I have two, all be it dated, spectrophotometers and have the software to create all my own profiles. It's fun, and one can do so much with digital. It's effect on architectural photography has been transformational.

But for black and white, I'm strictly analog. Now we're talking serious! For me, there's nothing like a well executed, black and white photograph.

It seems to me like we're in a LF renaissance! There appear to be as many, or possibly more makers of quality LF cameras as before. At the high end you can still buy Canham or Linhoff, then there are Chamonix or Shen Hao and Gibellini, and of course Intrepid makes decent rigs for low prices ('m leaving a bunch out too!). Lenses are everywhere, some even new. You can get film in pretty much any size you want. I hadn't even heard of 12x20 until semi recently, you people are crazy and I love it. Though somehow, for some reason, you can't get Delta 400 in 4x5 or 8x10...(Ilford, for shame!) I don't think anyone's commercial career depends on LF, but a lot of great photographic art sure does. I just ordered a Chamonix 5x7N, and it's arrives next week. Keith Canham shipped me a box of Portra 160, 50 sheets too! I am contact printing 8x10 from my Gibellini Bellatrix, and scanning for enlargement. Camera scanning has made high quality digital reproduction a flippin breeze! Finally you can get full film edges and high resolution in seconds instead of minutes, with fabulous color from NLP if you're shooting C41. Formerly the only scanner i know of that could do 4x5 and use Fuji Image Intelligence was the Durst Sigma, a rare beast! NLP doesn't exactly use FII, but it's color is based on that at least in one setting. It's even easier than ever for the home user to process sheet film. The Mod 45 I think holder for Patterson tanks looks great, Steamman has a crazy looking daylight tray system for 8x10, and of course Jobo is rocking it with the CPP3 and CPE3. Even the CPE3 can do 12 sheets of 4x5 in one go. I moved to expert drums but I keep my 2509n reels in case I need to do that.

Everything is more available, cheaper, and easier to do from what I can see. I have 2 boxes of 4x5 E100 and a 25 sheet box of direct positive 8x10 paper in my cart right now.

The dream for me is to someday own the Cooke XVa, which AFAIK you can still buy new. Wild.

I'm pretty much a newbie to LF. I've done a heck of a lot of reading on the subject on the various forums and groups and I'm happy to see the regrowth of LF.
My biggest question/concern regarding continued growth of LF as a hobby is the dearth of new lenses and shutters. Is anyone still making new?

No one makes mechanical shutters, like the Copal, today. Rodenstock makes their electronic shutter but only in a 0 size.

all major lens manufacturers have stopped producing large format lenses but Rodenstock does make lenses from 23 to 180mm for digital applications.

Well, Neil, without intentionally trying to do so, I've re-converted a few people away from color digital printing back to color darkroom for much of the same reasons as you cite for B&W - the kind of subtle nuance of detail and hue that is extremely difficult if not impossible to achieve in current digital printing, at least inkjet, which I still view as an adolescent medium in terms of hue reproduction. I've got a background in industrial coatings and have a pretty good idea of the inherent limitations of inkjet colorants. But not everyone is willing to put in the work necessary to achieve high quality color in a darkroom, so there's that. Pro laser printers are more flexible color-wise, but obviously too much of an investment for most individuals without a commercial application. But have fun, regardless. Some of today's B&W sheet films as well as VC silver papers are simply wonderful.