Current Color Materials and RA4 Printing

[silvergelatin]

It’s been a while since I’ve been in a color darkroom, as I’ve mostly just been shooting b/w for a long time. I plan to rent some time in a local color darkroom and print some recent color work in the coming weeks, but had a few questions first:

Of the current color neg films, which print with the highest contrast? I’m guessing Ektar is the top, but how far below that is Ultramax, Fuji 100, Gold, etc? I’ve done very good camera scans with all of the above, but real printing is always a different look. I like a lot of contrast - like approaching the old Ciba look. I may try push processing some of the emulsions I mentioned to max the contrast, if that will work well. I have high hopes for Ultramax/Fujimax, as it looks very nice in scans.

Has anyone used Fuji’s Pro-G paper (Japan only, I think)? I emailed the Tokyo HQ, and they confirmed is not the same as any of the export versions like CA or Supreme. What are its characteristics in terms of contrast, color, etc?

 

[koraks]

I’m guessing Ektar is the top, but how far below that is Ultramax, Fuji 100, Gold, etc?

Of the regular, non-experimental films, Ektar is on top, yes. But the difference with other regular C41 films isn't all that big.
If you include experimental stuff like Harman Phoenix, then it's a different story. Contrast on Phoenix is absolutely through the roof and in a different league than normal films. https://tinker.koraks.nl/photography/feet-of-clay-my-first-impression-of-harman-phoenix/

I like a lot of contrast - like approaching the old Ciba look.

Shoot Ektar and print on DPII or Maxima. There are ways to face mount the paper to e.g. plexiglass that yield a super gloss result if the paper's own gloss (which is already quite pronounced) is not good enough. That should put you in Ciba territory in terms of look. I think you'll find that Ultramax will not be quite as "poppy" as Ektar when you optically print it. Scans are deceptive.

Has anyone used Fuji’s Pro-G paper (Japan only, I think)?

Ah yes, you're in Japan, I see now. No, I have not come across it and can't tell you the characteristics of these papers. All I can tell is that the Japanese-made papers are close in performance to the European-made papers, so I don't expect major differences. You'll have to figure out together with Fuji Japan what the best paper for your purpose is. I'd use DPII and Maxima as the comparison products and ask them what will give the closest match in the Japanese papers.

Since you're in Japan, you might also try to get hold of some FujiFlex, which is a pure PE-base RA4 material with very high gloss. It's only produced sporadically and only comes in rolls of 40" and bigger. I'm mentioning it because it gets you close to the Ciba look - but it will be tricky to get hold of, especially if you need smaller cut-sheet formats.

 

[brbo]

The highest contrast film that still prints well is Adox Color Mission 200. Hard to get in meaningful quantities and when Adox runs out of current batch it will be gone forever.

Adox CM 200 @iso100, Fuji Maxima:




Btw, I wouldn't worry about lack of contrast with any film printed on Maxima.

 

[silvergelatin]

I think you'll find that Ultramax will not be quite as "poppy" as Ektar when you optically print it. Scans are deceptive.

That’s what I was afraid of. My Ultramax scans are shockingly good for a “cheap amateur” film, so I was afraid of being disappointed in the darkroom. Ektar scans are also great, but I do sometimes run into the color balance issues that others have complained about. Does printed Ektar also have the red skin tone issue?

Since you're in Japan, you might also try to get hold of some FujiFlex

Btw, I wouldn't worry about lack of contrast with any film printed on Maxima.

I used Fujiflex a couple of times over 20 years ago and loved it. I searched around for that initially and couldn’t find anything. As far as I can find, the only cut sheets available in Japan are Pro-G or L (gloss or lustre). If anyone knows any resellers in Japan that are cutting Fujiflex or whatever Japanese Maxima is, please let me know.

There is a local lab here that cuts a paper from rolls that they say is similar to Kodak, but is some brand I never heard of (called KJ). I may try that as well, or at least ask them what it is next time I’m there.

 

[koraks]

Adox CM 200 @iso100, Fuji Maxima:

Lovely!

Does printed Ektar also have the red skin tone issue?

It's a high-saturation film, so if you have a model with somewhat reddish skin tones, it'll show up in the print unless you balance it away into cyan. But that will affect overall color balance, too, of course. You could try something with flashing the paper to alter color balance in the highlights especially on a light-skinned model.

cutting Fujiflex or whatever Japanese Maxima is

Just to make sure: Maxima and Fujiflex are very different products. You're familiar with Flex; Maxima is 'just' an RC paper like the regular ones, but it has the highest contrast, saturation and archival stability of the bunch.

I'm not sure if any Maxima is even sold in Japan. Probably not. Fuji Japan seems to have decided to serve their domestic market with their own, made-in-Japan papers and Maxima is not being made in Japan. You could try to import it; e.g. @MToma (based in EU) cuts niche papers. What he has on offer depends on what he can get his hands on. Whether cost of shipping etc. is worth it is up to you to decide.

paper from rolls that they say is similar to Kodak, but is some brand I never heard of (called KJ)

There are two manufacturers of color paper presently. Fuji (manufacturing in Japan and Europe) and Lucky (China). Lucky manufactures paper under the Kodak brand, which they apparently got hold of (the license/right to use the name, that is) through the Sinopromise debacle. I'd personally steer clear of their papers since they're highly suspect in terms of archival stability. It sucks to spend a lot of time on making nice prints only to find they fade into oblivion within a couple of years. Better stick with Fuji. Real Kodak papers are no longer made.

 

[brbo]

That’s what I was afraid of. My Ultramax scans are shockingly good for a “cheap amateur” film, so I was afraid of being disappointed in the darkroom.

As said, you will more than likely have plenty of contrast and saturation with current RA-4 papers (except plain CA II).

Scan of Ultramax:



Print on Kodak Endura (one of the first I ever made while still learning (well, I still am), if I would to do it again I'd probably balance it for more pleasing skin tones) :

Ektar scans are also great, but I do sometimes run into the color balance issues that others have complained about. Does printed Ektar also have the red skin tone issue?

Well, yes. I'd say even more of an issue since you have very little control over it in darkroom.

I don't "do" people, but sometimes they insist on ruining my pictures.

Ektar printed on Endura:



Ektar printed on Maxima:



Ektar scan:

I used Fujiflex a couple of times over 20 years ago and loved it. I searched around for that initially and couldn’t find anything. As far as I can find, the only cut sheets available in Japan are Pro-G or L (gloss or lustre). If anyone knows any resellers in Japan that are cutting Fujiflex or whatever Japanese Maxima is, please let me know.

Maxima is very very close to Fujiflex in terms of contrast and saturation. I got some Fujiflex, but foolishly left it at room temp for half a year (we don't have air conditioning) and I guess the guy who cut some sheets for me also didn't have the freshest stock so it was already fogged by the time I wanted to print on it. I now use it for initial test prints and I can basically directly transfer to fresh Maxima for the fine balancing and final print.

 

[koraks]

Maxima is very very close to Fujiflex in terms of contrast and saturation.

That's remarkable given that they're coated in EU vs. Japan and Maxima was in fact conceived and engineered in EU, not Japan. It suggests Fuji are exceedingly consistent in their emulsion technology.

 

[silvergelatin]

Just to make sure: Maxima and Fujiflex are very different products. You're familiar with Flex; Maxima is 'just' an RC paper like the regular ones, but it has the highest contrast, saturation and archival stability of the bunch.

I'm not sure if any Maxima is even sold in Japan. Probably not. Fuji Japan seems to have decided to serve their domestic market with their own, made-in-Japan papers and Maxima is not being made in Japan. You could try to import it; e.g. @MToma (based in EU) cuts niche papers. What he has on offer depends on what he can get his hands on. Whether cost of shipping etc. is worth it is up to you to decide.



There are two manufacturers of color paper presently. Fuji (manufacturing in Japan and Europe) and Lucky (China). Lucky manufactures paper under the Kodak brand, which they apparently got hold of (the license/right to use the name, that is) through the Sinopromise debacle. I'd personally steer clear of their papers since they're highly suspect in terms of archival stability. It sucks to spend a lot of time on making nice prints only to find they fade into oblivion within a couple of years. Better stick with Fuji. Real Kodak papers are no longer made.

Thanks for the information about the current state of manufacturing! I didn't even know Fuji was making papers overseas.

 

[silvergelatin]

As said, you will more than likely have plenty of contrast and saturation with current RA-4 papers (except plain CA II).

Scan of Ultramax:



Print on Kodak Endura (one of the first I ever made while still learning (well, I still am), if I would to do it again I'd probably balance it for more pleasing skin tones) :





Well, yes. I'd say even more of an issue since you have very little control over it in darkroom.

I don't "do" people, but sometimes they insist on ruining my pictures.

Ektar printed on Endura:



Ektar printed on Maxima:



Ektar scan:





Maxima is very very close to Fujiflex in terms of contrast and saturation. I got some Fujiflex, but foolishly left it at room temp for half a year (we don't have air conditioning) and I guess the guy who cut some sheets for me also didn't have the freshest stock so it was already fogged by the time I wanted to print on it. I now use it for initial test prints and I can basically directly transfer to fresh Maxima for the fine balancing and final print.

Thanks for sharing! Definitely looks like a nice contrast bump on the Ultramax. The lab I go to that sells paper describes the Fuji Pro-G as high contrast, so perhaps it is in fact not plain CA II.

 

[koraks]

high contrast

All color papers today are "high contrast", relative to the selection that was available up to the late 1990s or so. The contrast differences in the present lineup are so marginal as to be virtually irrelevant. So the question is what their reference is.

I didn't even know Fuji was making papers overseas.

The lion's share is manufactured in Europe; this supplies Europe, the Americas, Africa and probably most of Asia insofar Fuji sells there. Japan manufacturers a small amount mostly for the Japanese market.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Ektar is the most consistently saturated color neg film; but it isn't artificially warmed like Kodak gold with its reddish faces. Ektar is also high enough contrast that you generally don't need any more contrast boost with most Fuji papers. Fujiflex Supergloss has an especially rich look in conjunction with Ektar. I still have a third of a roll of Flex left. It comes from Japan. I've used fresh rolls up to 5 or 6 yrs; but the question is, how fresh is it when you get it? (Hot humid storage conditions are bad for all these papers.)

So far, Maxima is still not available here in the US (Pre-pandemic, it was briefly available on a very limited basis). The closest product is apparently "Super CN". I've used the previous Super C, and it was an excellent product.

 

[synhare]

There is a gentleman selling cut Maxima that ships to the US here on photrio https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/ra-4-cut-sheets-fuji-maxima-velvet-and-so-on.207659/