Curiosity question: Where there any folder cameras with Planar/Planar based lenses?

zerminator · Jan 14, 2024

I know back in the olden days, 120 folders usually came with either a 3 element lens (Meyer Trioplan, Schneider Radionar, Rodenstock Trinar, Zeiss Novar etc) or a more 'premium' 4 element lens (Schneider Xenar, Zeiss Tessar etc). Do you folk know of any folders that came with 5 element lenses? The Voigtlander Bessa with its color heliar (or the rare apo lanthar) is the only one I can think of but were there any others that offered Planar or Xenotar lenses?

(Aside: I love my Bessa II. Just something magical about that camera and the lens.)

Paul Howell · Jan 14, 2024

Good question, my Mamiya folder (?) and Kodak Tourist both have Tessar style lens, not sure if I even seen a folder with a 5 to 7 element design. Even the Kodak Medalist was a 4 element design.

Sharktooth · Jan 14, 2024

The Plaubel Makina 67 had an 80mm f2.8 Nikkor lens. I think that was 6 elements. Just too expensive these days (and always).

Dan Daniel · Jan 14, 2024

Paul Howell said:
Good question, my Mamiya folder (?) and Kodak Tourist both have Tessar style lens, not sure if I even seen a folder with a 5 to 7 element design. Even the Kodak Medalist was a 4 element design.

The Medalist Ektar is a 5-element Heliar-type lens. 'Ektat' was a generic 'top of the line' name for Kodak, not a specific lens design class designator.

zerminator said:
I know back in the olden days, 120 folders usually came with either a 3 element lens (Meyer Trioplan, Schneider Radionar, Rodenstock Trinar, Zeiss Novar etc) or a more 'premium' 4 element lens (Schneider Xenar, Zeiss Tessar etc). Do you folk know of any folders that came with 5 element lenses? The Voigtlander Bessa with its color heliar (or the rare apo lanthar) is the only one I can think of but were there any others that offered Planar or Xenotar lenses?

(Aside: I love my Bessa II. Just something magical about that camera and the lens.)

There were Voigtlander Bessa 6x6s issued with a Heliar lens. 75mm, front cell focusing. I believe that this may have been before WWII as there is no coating and no 'color heliar' label, but I could be wrong.

Alex Varas · Jan 14, 2024

Dan is right about the Bessa 6x6, really difficult camera to get.
Another 5 elements folding camera is a Welta Weltur 6x6 or 6x4.5 where the lens is Xenar 75mm f/2.8 (unit focus).

Paul Howell · Jan 14, 2024

My mistake, I made two, the Medalist does have the 5 element lens, and it is not a folder.

Dan Fromm · Jan 14, 2024

If you want to get all, um, Jesuitical about it, the 5-element 105/3.7 Ektar was the optional top-of-the-line lens for 2x3 Pacemaker Graphics, both Speed and Crown. These cameras fold.

itsdoable · Jan 14, 2024

Technically, my Linhof Technika 70 folds with a 2.8/100mm Zeiss Planar ...

Dirb9 · Jan 15, 2024

The Fujica GS645 and some Ensign Selfix (versions with the Ross Xpres lens) use 5 element designs.

guangong · Jan 15, 2024

Fuji GF670 folder has a Fujinon EBC 80 mm 3.5 lens, which has 6 elements in 4 groups.

Dan Fromm · Jan 15, 2024

Dirb9 said:
The Fujica GS645 and some Ensign Selfix (versions with the Ross Xpres lens) use 5 element designs.

Are you sure about the Xpres lenses in Selfixes? I ask because the 105/3.8 Xpres in my Selfix 820 has reflections typical of a normal 4-element Tessar type.

I've always understood that the earliest Ross lenses badged Xpres had 3 element cemented rear groups to circumvent the Tessar patents (2 element cemented rear group) and that after WWI Ross made several designs badged Xpres, of which the majority were ordinary Tessar types.

titrisol · Jan 15, 2024

zerminator said:
I know back in the olden days, 120 folders usually came with either a 3 element lens (Meyer Trioplan, Schneider Radionar, Rodenstock Trinar, Zeiss Novar etc) or a more 'premium' 4 element lens (Schneider Xenar, Zeiss Tessar etc). Do you folk know of any folders that came with 5 element lenses? The Voigtlander Bessa with its color heliar (or the rare apo lanthar) is the only one I can think of but were there any others that offered Planar or Xenotar lenses?

(Aside: I love my Bessa II. Just something magical about that camera and the lens.)

I would think the new ones (post 1970s) have lenses with more elements.
Of the classics, some voigtlanders had Heliar (5) or Ultron (6) lenses, and I think the Mamiya 6x6 Automat had a 5-6 element lens

choiliefan · Jan 15, 2024

Voigtlander fitted many of their early folders with noncoated Heliar lenses.
My ancient Virtus has a 120mm Heliar.
The 6X9 Prominent and same format & larger Bergheil cameras could also he had with the same formula lenses as well.
They weren't exactly shy about selling their premier lenses ever.

Ian Grant · Jan 15, 2024

Dirb9 said:
The Fujica GS645 and some Ensign Selfix (versions with the Ross Xpres lens) use 5 element designs.

The 105mm f3.8 Xpres sold with the with the 820 Selfix have front cell focusing, except the Autorange version with its film plane focusing. They were sold separately fixed focus in an Epsilon shutter. There's no confirmation that it is a 5 element lens, I have 3 one on a camera, another uncoated possibly a prototype marked 107mm f3.8 Ensar with a SN 6007.

Dan Fromm said:
Are you sure about the Xpres lenses in Selfixes? I ask because the 105/3.8 Xpres in my Selfix 820 has reflections typical of a normal 4-element Tessar type.

I've always understood that the earliest Ross lenses badged Xpres had 3 element cemented rear groups to circumvent the Tessar patents (2 element cemented rear group) and that after WWI Ross made several designs badged Xpres, of which the majority were ordinary Tessar types.

I'm not sure the 1914 Xpres design was to get around the Zeiss Patent, reading the review in the 1915 BJP Almanac they claim corner to corner sharpness of high definition at full aperture f4.5, a Tessar is quite different. Before WW1 Ross were still making some Zeiss & Goerz lenses under license. however Carl Zeiss had just opened a new binocular and lens factory in London at Mill Hill, in 1913. Some Tessar lenses weremade and marked as Carl Zeiss (London).

There may be anotheclue in the 1915 BJPA., this would have been published late 1914. Ross had also just inrodiced their Combinable lens, a rival to the Protar. So perhaps the Zeiss London factory spurred Ross to produce new designs. Ross were still making a full range of Ross-Zeiss.Tessars in early1914, they had stopped making Protars and Dagors. I'll try and copy the pages from the BJPA. Oddly the Ross-Zeiss WA f16 "ProtarW Series V is listed in their 1914 catalogue as the Ross' Wide Angle Anastigmat f16.

I plan to buy a 6"Ross Xpres in a sunken mount as I'm restoring some SLRs, I could easily test it alongside a CZJ 15cm f4.5 Tessar

Back to the 105mm Xpres they always had a reputation for being excellent sharp lenses,the 75mm f3.5 Xpres on my Microcord is sharper than the Opton Tessar on mt Automat, or te Yashinon on my Yashicamat 124 at wider apertures. I'll stick the loose 105mm Xpres on a lens board and test it on my Toyo view camera.

Ian

Dan Fromm · Jan 15, 2024

Ian, thanks for the reply. I never got a satisfactorily sharp shot with my Selfix 820. I checked, the lens is in collimation. I checked, no motion blur. I think I eliminated operator error.

So I'd really like to hear about your results with your loose 105 Xpres. I take it that the lens is f/3.8.

Mark J · Jan 15, 2024

You've just reminded, me Ian, that I had an Autorange with the 105mm f/3.8 for a spell.
It was excellent but film flatness was a problem, like with a lot of folders.
I'm pretty sure it was a Tessar.

Ian Grant · Jan 15, 2024

Dan, yes it's the f3.8 105mm Xpres, it's in a Trikon 4 speed shutter. By chance I searched eBay for a 6" f4.5 Xpres immediately after my previous post, I have what looks to be a very clean one coming in the post, it is probably from around 1915. I have a British made ICA Tudor reflex with a 15cm f4.5 Tessar so comparison with the Xpres will be interesting.

I have some boxes of out of date Fomapan sheet film I want to check so I will wait for the 6" Xpres to arrive, I've a few other lenses to test.

There are the odd rogue lenses, a few years ago I was offered a Zeiss (Linhof) 150mm f4.5 Tessar (West German) for the cost of postage by an Australian member. It's just not remotely close to sharp. I compared the cells to my CZJ 150mm T coated f4.5 Tessar, both front cells seemed similar optically, although the West German lens had a slightly wider and larger front cell, the rear cells were quite similar. It won't focus, it has to be mis-matched front and rear cells.

Ian

zerminator · Jan 27, 2024

ack forgot to check in on this thread, super neat info, thanks everyone! (I may or may not have ordered a beat up Kodak Medalist cause it just seemed so charming...we'll see if it can be made to work...).

Alex Varas said:
Dan is right about the Bessa 6x6, really difficult camera to get.
Another 5 elements folding camera is a Welta Weltur 6x6 or 6x4.5 where the lens is Xenar 75mm f/2.8 (unit focus).

ooo neat from what I understand the Welta Weltur Xenar is a case of a tessar design slightly modified to be faster? (at least judging by https://www.photo.net/forums/topic/157803-when-xenon-is-a-xenar/?do=findComment&comment=1779711) That's neat!

Dan Fromm said:
If you want to get all, um, Jesuitical about it, the 5-element 105/3.7 Ektar was the optional top-of-the-line lens for 2x3 Pacemaker Graphics, both Speed and Crown. These cameras fold.

itsdoable said:
Technically, my Linhof Technika 70 folds with a 2.8/100mm Zeiss Planar ...

Oh hey, same. Except I got the Rodenstock Heliogon 100/2.8. Currently my Technica 70 is getting an expensive makeover at laflex but I look forward to trying it!

titrisol said:
I would think the new ones (post 1970s) have lenses with more elements.
Of the classics, some voigtlanders had Heliar (5) or Ultron (6) lenses, and I think the Mamiya 6x6 Automat had a 5-6 element lens

Hoh, given that the Olympus lens was a D zuiko, I assumed most of the 6'es were 4 elements. I assumed the Mamiya Sekor was the same. Hadn't heard that maybe there was a more advanced lens?

Eugen Mezei said:
Vitessa with Ultron (6 elements) is also a folder, but I dont know if the OP was interested only in 120 folders.

God, I need to get a Vitessa someday. Such a gorgeous camera. In the 35mm realm, I suppose the Kodak IIIc would count too. Mine has a Schneider 50mm Xenon C f/2 (which I assume is 5? or 6 elements and is an incredible lens for its age imo).

Had no idea about all this Ensign history. Tempted to get 1 when the budget improves. They seem really good cameras!

The folders I have got so far are:

Mamiya 6 ( a late but not automat version). Not sure about the lens, but (mine is the Setagaya Koki Sekor S which actually takes lovely photos).
Zeiss Super Ikon (a newer 6x6 and an older 6x4.5 both tessar)
Certo 6 (Tessar)
Franka 2 (3 element Rodenstock lens)
Bessa II (Color Heliar)
Plus two 6x6 Welta Welturs (one with the Trioplan, one with Tessar), both need some repair...(also one came with the 6x4.5 mask too which I assume is somewhat uncommon)

Ian Grant · Jan 27, 2024

zerminator said:
Had no idea about all this Ensign history. Tempted to get 1 when the budget improves. They seem really good cameras!

Ensign was a trade mark/name used by George Houghton and Sons, initially to symbolise they had Royal Navy contracts. They also made surveying and drawing office equipment, I have a catalogue somewhere..

Houghtons along with other manufacturers were partners in the Alliance Roll film Camera Co. Ltd set up in 1902. Some of these companies amalgamated with George Houghton & Sons in 1904 to form Houghtons Ltd, and the Alliance Roll film Camera Co. Ltd was wound up and these roll film cameras cameras re-branded as Ensigns.

I have numerous Houghtons wood & brass cameras, an enlargers, contact frames, NIB safe-lights, a Dallmeyer Press Reflex, which actually a re-badged Ensign Reflex.

Ian

Chuck1 · Jan 27, 2024

The ektar 100mm 3.5 from a medalist I or II, would fit in the appropriate supermatic or supermatic II shutter from a ektar 127mm ( might me wrong about that) or the shutters are different beasts entirely?
And compared to a zeiss tessar 100mm 3.5 is it not much different( not worth the effort/expense) and while I'm mentioning it how about the skopar 105 3.5?

JPD · Jan 28, 2024

If you go back to the 1910s and 1920s you have folders with six element Dagor lenses and Rietzschel had a 6x9 Roll-Tip camera with the eight element Linear lens.

The four element dialyte lenses like Unofokal, Eurynar, Dogmar and others, are also fun and different from the Tessar and triplets.

Dan Daniel · Jan 28, 2024

Chuck1 said:
The ektar 100mm 3.5 from a medalist I or II, would fit in the appropriate supermatic or supermatic II shutter from a ektar 127mm ( might me wrong about that) or the shutters are different beasts entirely?

Yes, same threading and spacing as other Supermatic shutters. Here's one mounted for a Century Graphic baby view camera. I think the original lens for the shutter was a 127, but might have been a 203. I took the aperture off of an original shutter and taped it onto this one since the scales are not the same.

Curiosity question: Where there any folder cameras with Planar/Planar based lenses?

Attachments

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency