Crud on top of negative

JPrune · Nov 30, 2023

Hello,

I was hoping someone could give me a little bit of help on an issue I've been having. Would anyone know what this kind of crud on the very top of the negative be caused by ? It's a thin dark line on the top of the frame. This is Ilford Pan 400 (similar to HP5, not kentmere) developed in Adox XT-3 with a water stop bath and a fixer (Adofix) which was mixed about a month ago. I diped in Telenal Mirasol 2000 1+200 and demineralized water before hanging to dry and squeegeeing once on the base side with a AP-brand squeegee. I have this kind of crud on some of the frames, which is visible on the base side of the negative when looking closely. There was another film in the tank but I did not notice this issue on it. Only on this film, which was at the top of the tank (2-reel paterson tank). On some of the frames, not all.

I am joining pictures of the scans where I noticed this. Would be hard to picture this on the actual negative, unfortunately.

Thanks to everyone for taking the time to look at this ! Have a great day

Matthias

Kino · Nov 30, 2023

Oh no! You said the forbidden word, "squeegee"! While it probably played no role in the above problem, be prepared for incoming lectures on using a squeegee.

In any regard, are you speaking of the short, horizontal line at the top of the frames you posted?

Don_ih · Nov 30, 2023

The dark line is a loss of emulsion on the negative, so a little scuff from something .... maybe from a squeegee....

Kino · Nov 30, 2023

This should be a quick determination; take a good loupe/magnifier and look at the problem area. If you don't have a good loupe/magnifier, you can detach a 50mm lens from a SLR, reverse it (look through the front of the lens) and use that as a good magnifier.

If the defect IS an abrasion, then it could be the squeegee. Otherwise, it's a bit more mysterious and requires further information...

koraks · Nov 30, 2023

JPrune said:
I have this kind of crud on some of the frames, which is visible on the base side of the negative when looking closely.

Which side do you call the 'base side'? For me, the base side would be the shiny side, of the film that's against the pressure plate in the camera and not the emulsion side.
I'm asking because any kind of crud (deposit) on the film will show up as light/white on the inverted/positive photo and never as a darker area (minus density on the negative).

I agree with @Don_ih that emulsion damage should be looked at first.

Saganich · Nov 30, 2023

I'm confused. If your seeing crud then it would be a less dense detail on the positive. Frankly I don't really see any issues with what you posted, the little line of density doesn't look like a scratch...I generally just assume it's mfg fault so as to not get lost in the minutiae.

Don_ih · Nov 30, 2023

For what it's worth, I doubt that little scratch was made by a squeegee. Scratches from those tend to be long and thin and don't just show up in a couple of frames.

Sirius Glass · Nov 30, 2023

I never use a squeegee, but I use a roller on the negative before putting the print in a print dryer, and I have not had problems with marks.

koraks · Nov 30, 2023

Sirius Glass said:
I use a roller on the negative before putting the print in a print dryer

You use a roller on your film before putting a print in a dryer...how does that work?

Kino · Nov 30, 2023

Sirius Glass · Nov 30, 2023

Sirius Glass said:
I never use a squeegee, but I use a roller on the ~~negative~~ print before putting the print in a print dryer, and I have not had problems with marks.

koraks said:
You use a roller on your film before putting a print in a dryer...how does that work?

Better?

Don_ih · Nov 30, 2023

koraks said:
You use a roller on your film before putting a print in a dryer...how does that work?

I don't know, either, but it must work well.

JPrune · Nov 30, 2023

I did not think the squeegee caused this as I had something similar when I developed another film and did not squeegee it. I did try the salad spinner technique for that other film though. I will post pictures of it.

I do see something when looking at the negative with a loupe, a small white mark. I am talking about the shiny side. The emulsion side is very clean (I did not touch it with the squeegee). Would be hard to take a picture of that, sorry... Not sure it's a scratch. But I cannot tell for sure. Or maybe a scratch caused by something else ? Actually quite hard to say what it is, my assumption was that I was some kind of deposit, maybe I should use fresh fixer next time and see if it comes up again. But if anyone has a better idea of what it might be I'm all ears.

In any case, thanks to everyone for the answers !! I truly appreciate it.

Brad Deputy · Nov 30, 2023

I get subtle emulsion damage on both the top and bottom of my 35mm negs which affects the numbers only (long scratches and undeveloped strips). I discovered I have a tendency to load the film on the steel reels too tight. Doesn't happen with plastic reels.

I doubt it's caused by the squeegee because the lines are too uniform and parallel to the edge. I certainly can't squeegee that well!

Check your cameras pressure plate and internals for any rough surfaces or debris.

Reminds me of those times a hair from my cat gets stuck in my lens and the entire roll has a nice diagonal black mark squiggly line, uniformly on each photo!

Don_ih · Nov 30, 2023

Brad Deputy said:
Reminds me of those times a hair from my cat gets stuck in my lens and the entire roll has a nice diagonal black mark squiggly line

That's from the cat, eh?

JPrune said:
a small white mark

A small white mark will sometimes be a kink in the film - but it doesn't make those little black lines. The little black lines are made by very tiny transparent lines on the negative.

cliveh · Nov 30, 2023

If you think manufactures of film know what there talking about when processing:-

I rest my case.

George Collier · Dec 1, 2023

Why don't you do a roll (or two) and after removing from the final bath (I would use a wetting agent which you don't seem to) and just hang them up? If you get marks, then it's not the squeegee. You could also just re-wet an old roll and do the same thing.
For what it's worth, I use Webril Pads, very soft graphic arts very soft wipes. I dip them in the final bath (which has Photoflo) and carefully fold the pad, and wipe in one motion from top to bottom after hanging. Both sides, one at a time, flipping the pad between. Since the 90's, when I started doing this, I have never, ever had any issues on either side.

()

JPrune · Dec 3, 2023

Thanks for all the answers ! I don't think it is a squeegee issue as I've had it before without using a squeegee, but I've cleaned the inside of my camera, I'm thinking this might be where a scratch could come from. Will see next time I develop ! I do use wetting agent in any case, at the manufacturer's recommended dilution. I might also try the webril pads technique next time, I'm actually looking to get a good film drying routine and testing out different approaches, in order to get more consistent results. So thanks for the suggestion !

A great Sunday to everyone

runswithsizzers · Dec 3, 2023

JPrune said:
Thanks for all the answers ! I don't think it is a squeegee issue as I've had it before without using a squeegee, but I've cleaned the inside of my camera, I'm thinking this might be where a scratch could come from. Will see next time I develop ! I do use wetting agent in any case, at the manufacturer's recommended dilution. I might also try the webril pads technique next time, I'm actually looking to get a good film drying routine and testing out different approaches, in order to get more consistent results. So thanks for the suggestion !

A great Sunday to everyone

When checking the camera, remember, the "top" of the negative is at the bottom of the camera.

JPrune · Dec 8, 2023

Hello and thanks again for all the help ! I've developed another roll, in another camera, will fresh chemicals, and wetting agent at the manufacturer's recommendation without squeegeeing. I still managed to get the small black lines which show up white on the negative. I am thinking this might be a development issue, but still unsure what exactly... so if anyone has a better idea of what it could be I'd be happy to hear it ! Here is another shot from that last roll and another one from an older roll where I also saw it happen.

Again, thank you and have a great day !

Matthias

koraks · Dec 8, 2023

Is that little line on the same spot of every frame? If so, it's related to the camera.

JPrune · Dec 8, 2023

Actually its size and spot on the negative may vary, and I have tried different bodies. Actually I kept the same lens on two different OM Olympus Bodies, but since this does not appear on every frame and on the same spot, I don't think that'd be the issue either

runswithsizzers · Dec 8, 2023

Are you using factory loaded film cartridges? -- or are you loading your film cartridges from a bulk loader?

If you take a (blank) roll which has never been in the camera, and have a commercial lab (or a friend) process that roll -- and if the marks are still there, then that suggests the film was marked before it went into the camera. Either a factory defect in the film, defective cartridges, or a problem resulting from the bulk loading process.

If your blank-roll-processed-by-someone-else does not have any marks, then that suggests either something wrong with your cameras, or a problem with your processing workflow.

To determine if the camera as the source, expose a roll in the camera and give it to someone else to process. If that comes back marked, it suggests the camera(s) are the problem; if unmarked, then the problem probably is caused by one of your film processing steps.

Crud on top of negative

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