Crown Graphic

[drkhalsa]

I am thinking of selling a piece or 2 of my 35mm equipment to purchase a Crown Graphic. Selling price is $389 plus local sales tax.

I haven't handled it yet and will before making the decision to buy.

Would anyone care to share their knowledge and experience with this camera?

Thanks,

Sat Kartar

 

[werra]

My vote would go for Super Graphic. Lightweight and rigid aluminium body and rotating back. No focal plane shutter tho.

 

[Colin Corneau]

Check to see both the lens that comes with the camera and if the rangefinder is functioning. A rangefinder you can use is very handy.

I've had a couple - if you're just doing straightforward 4x5 shooting it's very handy. You don't have the movements you do with a field camera or rail camera but if that doesn't matter to you then there's no difference.

I found it an excellent camera to travel with - light, compact, tough and its folding design makes packing it really easy.

 

[mgb74]

I haven't priced these recently, but $389 seems high to me. For that, I would certainly expect excellent condition, a graflok back, a lens in excellent condition, and a liberal return policy if anything is bad.

 

[Fotoguy20d]

$389 is way high for a Crown unless the lens is something pretty special. If it's just an Optar or Ektar, even with a Graflok and everything else perfect, that's high. I'd be happy to sell you my nearly perfect top-RF Crown with Xenar lens for that price if you really want one...

 

[John R.]

Condition is everything with these cameras. There are many Graflex cameras on the market and the prices are all over the place. I would shop for clean rather than price. I have a Pacemaker Speed Graphic with the original 135mm Optar lens. Everything was in superb condition but it was dusty and dirty. Close inspection revealed a top quality camera underneath the dirt. After I spent several hours detail cleaning it looks as close to new as one can get for a 50's vintage press camera. It's gorgeous and I love the thing. I paid $250 for it from a dealer and the camera was complete, even the leather hand strap is nearly perfect. It has the Kalart focus spot included on the rangefinder. The bellows are like new, the focal plane shutter works fine but sounds dry when it is tripped (will need lubrication service). The focus bed is perfect, the front standard and graflok back are perfect. The leatherette is all intact, no dimples. The lens and shutter work perfectly, including the flash synch. The camera takes perfect images with the lens shutter or focal plane shutter. This should give you a idea of what is out there for what price. This camera was purchased this year so that gives you an idea of what you can obtain in todays market if you are patient and spend time looking. I have seen similar Graphics selling for up to $795 in comparable condition. I would say the Crown Graphic you are considering could be negotiated down but I have not seen it either. I remind you, it's all about condition with these cameras. I do agree with Werra's comment about the rotating back, it is a great option to have but the camera condition is more important to me. For example, my Speed has the quick release hand strap, that makes it easy and convenient to flip the camera on it's side to mount on a tripod, I use a Arca B1 head with two quick release plates mounted on the Graphic which allows me to quickly convert orientation from horizontal to vertical. Although, you can't beat a rotating back so keep that in mind. I chose a focal plane shutter Graphic over a rotating back Crown. Would be ideal to have both but it's not a perfect world.

 

[drkhalsa]

Thanks for the input.

I called my friend who works at the camera dealer that's selling this camera and asked him some questions based on the posts above.

Lens is the 135 f4.7 Optar
It has the bi post for electronic flash
Rangefinder works but he thinks it needs adjustment
Not a Graflok back (he thinks that's why it's been there a while)
Clean condition

So, I'm beginning to think it is over-priced.

They do have a 30 day return policy on used equipment.

I've negotiated a price reduction, once, on a used item with them, but sometimes they don't budge on the price.

Fotoguy20d let me think about your offer a bit. I need to sell some things first to have the funds anyway.

 

[Mike Wilde]

Mine came moderately clean from a camera show 2 years ago with a stripped horizontal 1/4- 20 tripod mount (now fixed - a pain) and no battery door on the focus in the dark rangefinder dohicky, whatever it is called. Rangefinder works and has lens and shutter as you post above. Came with original case, which I find useful to store the thing in when it is at the house.

Price was 120 Can$; I bought 2 spare lens boards for $10 each the same day from same guy. One now holds a pinhole, and the other mounts a 210 Symmar S when I use this camera to shoot portraits.

 

[Whiteymorange]

Lens is the 135 f4.7 Optar
It has the bi post for electronic flash
Rangefinder works but he thinks it needs adjustment
Not a Graflok back (he thinks that's why it's been there a while)
Clean condition

So, I'm beginning to think it is over-priced.

With this description, I would guess the going price to be in the $100 to $150 range. I bought a Speed with an equivalent lens, etc for $75. Even at shows a Crown without a Graflock back is generally tough to sell. The 135 Optar is OK, but not a prize. I'd keep looking.

 

[Jerry Thirsty]

I think I paid about $160USD for mine about 8 months ago (EX condition with Xenar, fully functional and accurate, but missing the pop-out viewing hood).

 

[Mike1234]

At these prices... all the more push to break these systems apart and sell them off in bits.

 

[John R.]

With this description, I would guess the going price to be in the $100 to $150 range. I bought a Speed with an equivalent lens, etc for $75. Even at shows a Crown without a Graflock back is generally tough to sell. The 135 Optar is OK, but not a prize. I'd keep looking.

From my experience I think the 135 Optar is better than "OK". Maybe that means mine is just performing better than some others out there or perhaps there are other camera issues playing a roll with the results others may be realizing. I have shot mostly Fuji FP-100c with my Speed and the 135 Optar. The images are nice and crisp, good contrast and natural color, exposure is even across the format with no obvious fall off in density or sharpness. Having said that, the images were not shot in what I would call critical conditions with high flare, back lighting and other situations that can cause issues with some lenses. I also have had very good performance from the Graphex leaf shutter. I am confident one will gain performance using an Ektar over the Optar with a Graflex but once again it depends on what is being photographed. I use a 14" Commercial Ektar on an 8x10 and that particular lens always amazes me how well it performs compared to modern lenses. My opinion is that if an older Graphic Speed or Crown has the Optar I would not walk away from a decent deal in pursuit of trying to obtain an Ektar version, even though a Ektar is a good optic. The Optar will certainly please many shooters, especially when a photographer considers it's age. I have no intentions of getting rid of mine, it does a fine job.

 

[Whiteymorange]

From my experience I think the 135 Optar is better than "OK"

"OK" is obviously relative, as is, I suspect, the performance of the lens in question. I have a number of Wollensak lenses and their performance varies from spectacular to not really very good at all; mushy and lacking in character. The deciding factor is certainly not original price or reputation. I think the age of most of these lenses brings in the "how they were treated" factor, but I also believe that manufacturing quality control varied over the years. Ok can be pretty darn good, I grant you. I wouldn't hesitate to buy an Optar, and I would expect it to perform pretty well - that's my definition of OK.

 

[mgb74]

A good point about specimen to specimen varying in a lens. Also keep in mind that, with view camera lenses this old, a given lens may have had a front or rear element group replaced. So we are left with the performance of a specific lens.

Also, while I think the price is high even from a dealer, you should expect to pay more from a store with a physical presence then a consumer-to-consumer deal.

 

[John R.]

A good point about specimen to specimen varying in a lens. Also keep in mind that, with view camera lenses this old, a given lens may have had a front or rear element group replaced. So we are left with the performance of a specific lens.

Also, while I think the price is high even from a dealer, you should expect to pay more from a store with a physical presence then a consumer-to-consumer deal.

Absolutely I agree, variation during that period of time in manufacturing is a factor contributing to performance. Specimen fluctuations even occur in modern optics as testing is not done item by item but randomly. I think it's important to understand that a specific lens series does have a baseline quality that can be evaluated through use and it seems the Optar has a decent reputation as I hear of very few complaints or issues about the lens. The older lenses like Optars and Ektars offer some unique looks, I think these lenses that Graflex chose to use can offer modern photographers a lot. There is a look that is hard to describe that the Optar produces which is completely unique to my normal modern Rodenstocks. My view is that a Optar can hold it's own very well in a given situation. I have not used an Optar with B&W yet but I believe the results will be quite satisfying based on how the lens has handled color.

It is absolutely correct that a person should expect to pay more through a dealer than through an individual. The store has to deal with day to day overhead expenditures and other associated costs.

 

[Pupfish]

The price is high for that Crown in today's market, at least twice what any educated buyer would be willing to pay. Graflok back ones are much more desirable.

One of the things that the Wollensak Raptars (Optars) and many normal-length Ektars had going for them resolution-wise was a smallish image circle. Yes, that's actually a plus with a press camera, at least with these older Tessar designs. They need stopped down to f/22, but coated ones can have resolution that's nothing short of astounding. Around center, equal to or actually better than just about anything more recent. If you want more than the most minimal tilts and swings on a 4x5 you'd need a camera with tilting back instead. Corners of my 135mm f/4.7 Raptars do show some CA; but this is not too shabby for a 60 year old, coated, lightweight, very inexpensive lens. Shoot 6x9 roll-film as I do with this lens on a Super Graphic, and you'll never notice it.

 

[BrianShaw]

"OK" is obviously relative, ... (snip) Ok can be pretty darn good, I grant you. I wouldn't hesitate to buy an Optar, and I would expect it to perform pretty well - that's my definition of OK.

Just as another data point... I have only experienced 135 Optars that are "better than OK" and wouldn't hesitate buying another either. I've found that consistent usage of a lens hood leads to consistently "better than OK" photographs.

The Optar 90s seem to have much more "OK-ness variation" than that 135s.

p.s. The asking price for the camera gear in the OP is high enough that I would walk away without even casually thinking about buying!

 

[photobum]

I have a very late model Crown in primo condition that came with the Schneider Xenar 135. Like the Optar very little coverage/movement. But the lens itself is the sharpest 135 I've seen or tested. It kills a 135 Rodenstock N that I had.

Anyway, that price is high. Is it a top rangerfinder? The top rangerfinder models have a battery box with a red button that shoots out a split focus beam in the dark. You can focus on a cave wall at midnight. I think the Crown is the best night/low light L/F camera ever made.