Crown Graphic

Ok I've been shooting mostly 35mm my entire life, but i do have an OLD MF that occasionally shoot, but not to often since its so cumbersom. Anyway, a lady i've worked with is dumping all of her film equipment (digital strikes again) and she has a really clean perfectly working crown graphic with a kodak ektar 127mm f4.7 lens. Its in strking condition, and she said that she'd take whatever its worth and throw in all the extras she has (about 10 film backs, and a 6X9 MF back, a few filters, 4x5 tank, and a nice case for it) my questions are A) what would be a good fair price to offer? (i'm thinking $300??) B) Is it a good first time user LF camera? C) Good lens, bad lens, bad camera? D) Any other draw backs or a plus to that camera?

Thank you in advance

Ryan, I started with a Crown. They're really a very nice place to start. Be fore warned however, if you think MF is too cumbersome to shoot, the crown is going to be an order of magnitude more - well, it depends I guess on what MF gear you're coming from.

Anyway, WRT your questions, here is my opinion.. offered for free. Take it for what it is worth.

A) what would be a good fair price to offer? (i'm thinking $300??)

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Yeah, that's sounds about right. The camera and lens would go for something like $225. It also depends to a degree on the age and condition of the lens and shutter as well as whether on not the camera has a Graflok back. Film holders vary. The newer plastic ones (Fidelity Elite and Lisco Regal II) currently fetch around $8-$10 each (!) for used in good condition. The type of tank also must be factored in. If the tank is a Jobo with reel or one of those hard to find SS Nikkor tanks that'll do 4x5, they're obviously worth more. Anything else, is probably not worth much (my opinion).

B) Is it a good first time user LF camera?

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YES! But be prepared to deal with the addiction. In no time at all you'll be looking at 8x10's and all manner of shutters, lenses, etc...

C) Good lens, bad lens, bad camera?

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The lens has a decent reputation for being sharp and well corrected. However, it just barely covers 4x5. Fine for press photos...not so good for learning about camera movements. Camera...are you kidding? Yeah, the Crown Graphic has been around for a long time and still continues to be in high demand. There is a reason for that. They are rugged, portable, relatively easy to use, easy to fold....and, well, what more can I say. I now have three LF cameras. The crown remains my favorite.

D) Any other draw backs or a plus to that camera?

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Hmmm, well, others will undoubtedly poo-poo the Crown for having limited movements...I guess it all depends on how you look at it. I look at the Crown as a big folder - kinda like a giant Ikonta. How many Ikontas do you see with movements?

One other thing, at $300 you really can't go wrong. You could easily resell it for that much.

Dear Ryan,

a) $300 is more than just the camera, but less than with all the accessories.
b) Yes. No real movements, but it's handholdable and you get huge negatives.
c) Good enough when you consider the negative size.
d) See "b" above. Very rugged. Grafmatic backs are available that make it a walking around camera.

Neal Wydra

Ryan, based on the prices I see the crowns actually sell for currently (such as a recent sale here on Apug) I'd say offer her somewhere in the neighborhood of $250--$300 strikes me as a little high. The lens isn't going to give you much in the way of movements, but I think it will cover all the movements that the crown has to offer. If you need a little more wiggle room let me know and we can work something out in trade for a 135mm press lens that I see more often on the 4x5 (I've got 2 and since they have hoods they are nice and contrasty in comparison to one w/o)/.

Sometimes I wonder where people get their pricing???

I think $300 is a pretty good deal considering the package. Just subtract the $80-$100 worth of holders and at least $50 for the case (if it's a Graflex original)... That makes the camera no more than $150 with a lens

The Crown is a great camera! No, it doesn't have all the movements, but it's light and portable.

There are also two different models. Top rangefinder and side rangefinder. The Top Rangefinder uses cams for the lenses. This is a great way to use the camera as a big hand-held, well, rangefinder camera. I use my Super this way with a Grafmatic in the back... The top rangefinder usually sells for more than the side model which can be adjusted for many single lenses but can't use cams...

I would also take up Jeremy's offer to swap the 127 for the 135. It's just a better all-round lens. The 127 is awfully wide for 'normal' and has little coverage.

If you're not sure, first make sure what model the camera is, then spend an hour or so looking over the graflex.org site...

First, my interpretation of the language in your post is "buy the camera, get the other goodies thrown in for free". If that is the case, $300 is over priced.

Now, for the whole kit, let's look closer.

About a year ago, when I was lusting after one of these toys, it seemed you couldn't touch one for under $200. The camera as you describe would fetch probably $225-250, maybe more depending on condition.

After seeing Jim Galli let a crown go for a really low price, I decided to recheck eBay. It does seem that prices have dropped on these toys.

Really nice ones still seem to fetch a good price. This one went for $271
http://cgi.ebay.com/CROWN-GRAPHIC-4...538660376QQcategoryZ15247QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

The Optar is possibly a better lens, but comparable.

This one sold for $91, in not good shape.
http://cgi.ebay.com/GRAFLEX-CROWN-G...539201268QQcategoryZ15247QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


So that gives you a pretty wide range. Figure $150 for good measure.

The other toys:

4x5 holders: $5-10 each. Figure about $75.
(although I have purchased wood holders at camera shows for $2)

6x9 back:
I see them on eBay selling for $40-$70. Figure $50 to make the math easier.

4x5 tank--hard to say without more info. If it is a tank with film-holders (like a yankee or the like), it doesn't add a lot to the deal. If it is a Jobo, it adds a lot. figure maybe $25.

So, you have camera ($150), holders ($75), 6x9 back ($50), tank ($25), and you get $300. Big error bars, but I think in really good condition the camera would be worth more than the estimate.

As to the other questions:

The Crown is a pretty classic entry level 4x5 camera. Can't go too far wrong. If you need a lot of movements, it may not be ideal. However, if you are mostly after big film, it is a good find.

Here is the story I heard about the 127mm lens:
This was made as a standard lens for 3x4 cameras. Thus, it barely covers 4x5. It was made popular as a press lens. 127 is moderately wide for 4x5, so it covers more area without distortion of a really wide. Use the finder for the 4x5 standard lens (~150mm), and you are pretty sure to get your subject on the film somewhere. The press photographers supposedly would set the lens at hyperfocal distance, where it covers 4x5. Put a flash-bulb for light--lots of light so you can stop down a lot and get a lot of depth of field. Net result, a point and shoot 4x5 for moderate distances (the sorts that a press photographer would be interested in).

Matt

One has a different perspective on Crowns if you have shot LF for a long, long time.

They are more than enough for 90 % of the work anyone will ever do. They are light, cheap ( at twice the price they are bargains ), and easy to use. There is no better way to learn LF, and if you find you don't NEED front tilt and all the fiddly controls, you will never need more.

There are just too many folks who started with Crowns, 'grew up' into big fancy cameras, and returned to Crowns later on, to worry about if it is 'enough of a camera'.

For the 127, in the days of press shooting, you didn't use movements. Kodak was the finest optical shop on the planet, and this was its calling card. It will stand up to image comparison to any 5" lens made today. Shoot the camera like a 35 and have a blast. The 127 is like shooting 28 on 35 mm ( if you crop down to 8x10 ... if you crop 4x5 to 2x3 proportions, then it's a 35 mm lens ).

$300 for all this kit is a steal. Crowns fluctuate regularly on Ebay. When you get it, put the rollback in a drawer and forget it.

Not long ago, lots of us old geezers used to say that best way to spend $1000, if you want to get a camera and make great pictures, was to buy a Crown, with this lens, some dish trays to process film and paper in, and a round trip ticket to Paris. Stay for a month, come home and contact print your work. Even corrected for monetary changes, it's really good advice.

Have fun ! Shoot it like a 35, maybe with a tripod, and a don't worry about 'movements' and the whole 4x5 indoctrination program. Let it serve you as you are. If you ever need some movement, it's there. But just shoot and have fun.

School is starting soon. I'd expect Ebay prices to climb with it. OTOH come Jan or maybe Feb I'd expect the price to decline a little.

I agree with DF you can treat it like a big camera with no movements and be very happy with it. I wouldn't worry about the lens. They come off and can be replaced if it doesn't live up to what you want.

With the camera being local you're saving on shipping. Not risking a bad Ebay seller. Getting to see it before hand. That's all worth money IMHO.

The question I haven't seen asked is what do you intend to use it for? For some things the lack of movements might bother you. For others the bellows length might bother you. OTOH if you're just taking landscape pictures you might not notice either issues.

Just about everyone who has responded has mentioned something about the movements...usually preceeded by "no" .

Just to set the record straight, as manufactured, a crown graphic has the following movements:

back: none.
front rise: 30mm (~1.24 inches)
front tilt: ~15-20 degrees back (but see also below)
front shift: +/- 10mm
front swing: 0

In addition to these, the bed can be dropped something like 15 degrees. Ostensibly, this is to get it out of the field of view when shooting with wide lenses (and the Crown can accommodate some relatively short focal lengths). However, dropping the bed also effectively gives you front tilt in the forward direction. Lots of people seem to over look this. Now, granted, it is a pain to use...but, it is there.

Paid $130 for my crown with a 6.5 inch Paragon lens in an Ilex shutter. The lens and shutter have been selling on E-bay in the area of $200. Actually I wanted the lens and shutter for my view camera, which needed a good primary lens. The crown came with all kinds of extra goodies, which will get relisted on E-bay in the near future. So at $300 for a good working crown, you have got a good deal. Go for it. O ya thank the lady.

Ryan,

The Crown is a fun camera--it is also a very useful camera for handheld lf work. Basically its a trade off with the old Speed Graphic=a bit less wieght and bulk as opposed to the Speeder's focal plane shutter. I think condition is everything, especially with Graphics! The were built to be used, and they were more often than not used hard. A nice example is worth a bit more than the usual press corps 'beater.'

Whether or not its the best first LF camera for you is ultimately your decision, but they are fun and they are good handhelds too. If you aren't using movements, your film will never know if it was exposed in a Crown or a much more expensive camera and niether will the people who see your photos unless you tell them.

The 127 ektar is a truly great lens(IMHO) True, they have a limited circle on a 4x5, but then theres not much movement on a Crown/Speed, so I consider it a match made in heaven (well, maybe Rochester NY!) The only downside I see is if you want to move up to a field camera later on, you probably won't care to rob the little ektar from the Crown for your new camera.

Good luck!

You stated that you use mostly your 35mm because MF is too combersome - I'd say stay away from Large Format - it's a completely different ball gamle. Only because you now have this offer does not mean that you suddenly will become a LF fan. Medium Format cameras have significantly more features (in terms of speed of shooting) than LF cameras. It seems to me that the Crown will be used a few times and then end up in the closet with the MF gear. LF is not for everyone - you need patience, you will work slowly and think about every sheet you want to shoot three times before you'll take that picture (yes you can do hand held shooting with the Crown, but I don' think that's what most people do).

I bought a crown when I really wanted a speed. Both are great cameras but the rangefinders (one cammed and another a side-mounted kalart) in mine are both out of whack. I even replaced the mirrors but still cannot even remotely get them to accurately line up. I gave up..

I like barrel lenses. The focal plane shutter and ability to fold into a 'lunch box' are the main reasons I stick with the speed graphic.

The crown is really light; with a spring back, holder inserted and 135mm optar it weighs the same if not LESS than my pentax 645 with 75mm lens.
Then again, I still have to carry around 6 to 15 holders..

$300 is a good price IMHO.

sattler123 said:

You stated that you use mostly your 35mm because MF is too combersome - I'd say stay away from Large Format -.

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Depends on why he didn't like MF. Some people pickup a MF camera and think of it like a 35mm camera. People pickup a 4x5 and they know it's different. My MF is in some ways harder to hand hold then some 4x5s but I'm not likely to hand hold a 4x5. I handhold the MF all the time. It may not make sense but people tend to be influenced by what they expect.

About Crown vs. Speed, it depends on what you want to do.

If you want to use a normal lens and that's it, they're roughly equal but because of size and lightness the Crown has a slight edge.

If you want to build a system, you probably need one of each. The Speed will focus longer lenses than the Crown, and can be used with lenses in barrel. The Crown will focus shorter lenses than the Speed.

And to answer the original poster, don't worry whether you got a good deal. Just enjoy using the camera.

$225 with the lens and some holders is fair to both. I sold a very nice crown within the last month with the 6X9 back and 2 4X5 holders for $175 right here on APUG. The Kodak 127 is very sharp in the center but begins to fail in the edges on 4X5. They were for newspaper journalists that weren't concerned with making 20X24 prints. Kodak said they were a 3 1/4 X 4 1/4 lens but they usually ended up on 4X5's. You can get a little front forward tilt I think by dropping the bed then using the rearward tilt to set it a few degrees. Go for it. If you decide the bigger format isn't for you, you can pass it along for the same $$ easily.

If everything is in good condition, I'd say go for it.

Have a play around, and if you don't like it you can always sell it. You should be able to break even at the very least.

Paul

Sorry about the late reply i have been busy preparing for classes to start back up. Anyway It seems as this is pretty much everyone saying to go for it, so i have decided i will. Hopefully i'll get it next week when I see her. Now the question of what film to buy is at hand haha.