Crown Graphic Lens

[JADoss23]

Was curious if there was a list somewhere of lenses that can be used with Crown graphics and still fold up into the camera without having to be removed? Thanks

 

[Dan Fromm]

I don't think so, could be mistaken. Ask on graflex.org

 

[BradS]

Good question.

 

[Eric Rose]

I would suspect any of the Rodenstock Geronar lenses would work. The 150 for sure and probably the 210.

 

[removed account4]

The few that I have or have had that fold up ez in the case
Wollensak raptar 90,
Wollensak 3 1/2" exwa,
135 ( Linhof special ) Schneider? ,
Tominon 127,
Ilex seminat 6",
I also have some sort of Kodak lens in a supermatic shutter.

Maybe if others reading this thread have lenses or used lenses that folded up
they can add it to the thread ?

John

 

[shutterfinger]

I'm 45pss at https://graflex.org/helpboard/ . There is no lens list that I'm aware of. There are 2 factors that limit what lens fit, how far the edge of the front element is from the lens board and how wide the front element is. There is possibly a post containing these measurements in the first 3 years of post in the Speed Graphic Help section of https://graflex.org/helpboard/ .
I just measured a 135mm Optar in a Graphex full sync shutter with chrome lens cap and its 27mm from the board to the top of the lens cap. My Super Speed's Graphic 1000 shutter is 38mm from the lens board to the tip of the built in lens shade/cocking ring and the distance between the innermost parts of the rails is 63.5mm.
Any lens that fits within these measurements should work.

 

[sissysphoto]

There's no such list. Which begs the question what difference does it make? They generally came with a 135 optar which was ideally suited for the camera. The image circle it threw on the film was big enough for the camera's limited movements. It was slight wide angle lens when you needed one and a pretty strong telephoto lens when you needed that, via enlargement in the darkroom. The trick is to see to it that the rangefinder itself was properly calibrated. Since a great many rangefinders were Kalarts, I can personally attest that their accuracy could be set to mere inches (or less). So there is no reason not to be satisfied with the 135 Optar or Xenar, as the case may be. The main worry to think of is shutter accuracy. Just keep in mind that 1/200 is your top speed. Forget about 1/400, as 1/400 will never be better than 1/250 anyway. The Speeds and Crowns were designed to be walkaround cameras preset at shutter speed and f stop. You can't make a view camera out of them, unless it's scenics and such. Use the Optar and learn to be happy.

 

[Ian Grant]

A 203mm f7.7 Ektar (all shutter versions) fits, as does a 210mm geronar, 210mm f6.3 Congo/Osaka Commercial, 150mm f4.5 Tessar or Xenar, and 135mm f4.5 & 4.7 Xenat, Symmar S, Sronar N. I've never tried my 150mm Sironar N but it should close.

A 90mm f6.8 Angulon or 90mm WA WA Raptar, a 120mm f6.8 Angulon, 120mm f6.8 Dagor are all WA lenses that are small and will fit and close. Again I've not tried but a 75mm f8 Super Angulon might allow closing, the 65mm 8 SA will. No f5.6 or f4.5 90mm or 75mm Grandagon or Super Angulon or similar will allow closing.

I use a 90mm f6.8 Angulon, 135mm Caltar S-I or CZJ150mm f4.5 T Tessar, along with a 203mm f7.7 Ektar (US version in Compur #1) with a Super Graphic or Crown Graphic and all allow the camera to be folded when fitted. This is my light weight 5x4 kit.

Ian

 

[BrianShaw]

There's no such list. Which begs the question what difference does it make? They generally came with a 135 optar which was ideally suited for the camera. The image circle it threw on the film was big enough for the camera's limited movements. It was slight wide angle lens when you needed one and a pretty strong telephoto lens when you needed that, via enlargement in the darkroom. The trick is to see to it that the rangefinder itself was properly calibrated. Since a great many rangefinders were Kalarts, I can personally attest that their accuracy could be set to mere inches (or less). So there is no reason not to be satisfied with the 135 Optar or Xenar, as the case may be. The main worry to think of is shutter accuracy. Just keep in mind that 1/200 is your top speed. Forget about 1/400, as 1/400 will never be better than 1/250 anyway. The Speeds and Crowns were designed to be walkaround cameras preset at shutter speed and f stop. You can't make a view camera out of them, unless it's scenics and such. Use the Optar and learn to be happy.

I’m sure someone is going to chastise this response... but it won’t be me. When I got my first graphic the first Hong I did was replace the lens with a “newer and sharper “ lens. Then fussed and worried about rangefinder calibration etc etc. Very soon thereafter I put the Optar back on... and enjoyed the next few decades photographing.... and beng happy.

 

[Ian Grant]

I’m sure someone is going to chastise this response... but it won’t be me. When I got my first graphic the first Hong I did was replace the lens with a “newer and sharper “ lens. Then fussed and worried about rangefinder calibration etc etc. Very soon thereafter I put the Optar back on... and enjoyed the next few decades photographing.... and beng happy.

I think it's about learning what lenses are capable of and then getting the most from them. Dan Fromm's comment is "ask the lens" and he means try it

My experience with a pre-WWII CZJ 135mm f4.5 Tessar was soft at the corners and edges wider open, just OK at f16, excellent at f22, also lower contrast than modern lenses and less shadow and highlight detail, a coated 135mmXenar still has the softness at wider apertures but very much better contrast. Any Tessar type 135mm lens (or shorter) has a tight image circle so very little room for movements and will be softness at wider apertures, how much will vary slightly newer lenses may be a tough shraper.

I switched to a CZJ 150mm f4.5 Tessar which is T coated and that made a significant difference, first the better contrast means an improvement in shadow and highlight details, there's a larger image circle some room for movements and it's slightly sharper at the edges/corners at f16 than a 135mm Tessar (or type) because of this. In the 10+ years I've used the 150mm Tessar no-one would be able to tell which images have been made with it alongside images made with the 135mm Symmar S, 150mm Sironar. So as you say if you are happy with an older lens use it

Ian

 

[removed account4]

and enjoyed the next few decades photographing.... and beng happy.

there you go ..

 

[EdSawyer]

the 135/3.5 Xenotar will fold up inside, if that's useful to know. The 90/8 Nikkor SW will as well, I believe.

 

[hsandler]

I can confirm that the following fit folded up:
Wollensak Optar 135mm f4.7
Schneider Xenar 135mm f4.7
Wollensak WA Optar 90mm f6.3

I can confirm that the Sironar 240mm f5.6 will definitely NOT fit folded up; it's huge.

 

[Ian Grant]

the 135/3.5 Xenotar will fold up inside, if that's useful to know. The 90/8 Nikkor SW will as well, I believe.

There's agap of approx 60-62 mm that the front element has to go through on the track to to close it up, the 90mm f8 Nikkor SW has a 67mm filter thread and an OD of 70mm so now way, as well as that the rear cell may be too long and could break the focus screen.

Ian

 

[JADoss23]

All of this has been a great help and a lot of useless info and opinions. Thanks for everyone's feedback!

 

[juan]

If you’re going to use this at a press conference, get a 127mm or so lens. That way you can get closer than the 135mm guys and block their shots.

 

[Alan Gales]

I would suspect any of the Rodenstock Geronar lenses would work. The 150 for sure and probably the 210.

Yes, the Rodenstock Geronar lens will just fold up into the camera. I had the Caltar version and was able to fold it up into my Crown Graphic.

 

[Alan Gales]

There's no such list. Which begs the question what difference does it make? They generally came with a 135 optar which was ideally suited for the camera. The image circle it threw on the film was big enough for the camera's limited movements. It was slight wide angle lens when you needed one and a pretty strong telephoto lens when you needed that, via enlargement in the darkroom. The trick is to see to it that the rangefinder itself was properly calibrated. Since a great many rangefinders were Kalarts, I can personally attest that their accuracy could be set to mere inches (or less). So there is no reason not to be satisfied with the 135 Optar or Xenar, as the case may be. The main worry to think of is shutter accuracy. Just keep in mind that 1/200 is your top speed. Forget about 1/400, as 1/400 will never be better than 1/250 anyway. The Speeds and Crowns were designed to be walkaround cameras preset at shutter speed and f stop. You can't make a view camera out of them, unless it's scenics and such. Use the Optar and learn to be happy.

So owning a Crown/Speed Graphic with a 135mm is just like owning a Leica with only a 35mm or 50mm lens?

 

[BrianShaw]

If you’re going to use this at a press conference, get a 127mm or so lens. That way you can get closer than the 135mm guys and block their shots.

Wonderful suggestion... I never would have thought of that!

 

[MultiFormat Shooter]

The Schneider Xenar 210mm F/6.1 will fit with camera folded, as will the Ilex Calumet Caltar 6.5" (165mm) F/6.3 lens. The 10" Tele-Optar will NOT fit with the camera body closed. I set my Crown and Speed Graphics up for one lens, each, with custom-cut cams for the top-mounted rangefinders, viewfinder masks, and infinity stops set for the given lens. This way everything is always "ready to go," and I just grab the camera with the lens I want.

 

[Ian Grant]

The lenses mention in this thread as allowing a Crown Graphic to close when they are fitted will be relevant to other cameras as well, they'd include Graflex and Toyo Super Graphics, MPP MicroPress and MicroTechnical, Linhofs, and probably many of the metal bodied Japanese Technical cameras Toyo 45A etc.

Ian

 

[Besk]

Suggestion is to install a lensboard on the camera with a hole in it but no lens. Push the standard all the way back inside the camera and close the bed. Remove the ground glass from the back and take some measurements with a suitable measuring device. That way you can make all the measurements you need. Knowing the maximum diameter of the front of a lens that can be stored in the camera you will know what lenses will fit just be obtaining published lens info on the lenses in question. Of course the data on some lenses may not be available unless measured.

The above method has worked for me with both a Bush Pressman and a miniature Crown Graphic.

 

[Dan Fromm]

So owning a Crown/Speed Graphic with a 135mm is just like owning a Leica with only a 35mm or 50mm lens?

Absolutely, if the user wants to hobble himself.

 

[Alan Gales]

Absolutely, if the user wants to hobble himself.