Cross processing C-41 with rodinal.

Top-Cat · May 18, 2009

I recently found out that color negatives can be cross processed in B&W chemistry, so I thought I'd give it a shot and used a 1:50 dilution as well as a 1:25 one with a 10 and 5 minute processing bath.

The 1:50 10 minutes one came out somewhat OK, but with an extremely low contrast, as well as the film came out red instead of purple/blue like I'm used to with Ilford Delta and Kodak T-Max films, I was able to make some kind of a print, but grey and with an extremely low contrast, I used a 24 shot Kodak Gold 400 film so I tried processing it like T-Max 400.
The second one, a 1:25 mix with 50 seconds was a slide film: Fuji Sensia 400, this one was even more of a failure since it came out almost completely black with a barely visible image, same problem with the printing, only slightly worse, only able to make prints of extremely low contrast.

Is there any list or instructions on how to get a more decent image from cross processing negative or slide film with rodinal? I've seen a few examples out there where people get a rather strong contrast using color films for B&W purposes, so there's got to be a way.

I'm slightly new to analog, so I'd like to know a bit on how to achieve a good deal of contrast through both processing and printing even while using normal B&W film - I noticed that using a higher concentrate with a shorter processing time seemed like one way to achieve this, is this correct?

Photo Engineer · May 18, 2009

Color negative films from Kodak and Fuji will always have a deep red color when cross processed. No way to fix this.

PE

Top-Cat · May 18, 2009

But is there a way to achieve higher contrast and clearer pictures?
And are there any other available color films suited for this kind of cross processing?

Photo Engineer · May 18, 2009

All negative color films have a yellow filter layer and most of them have an orange mask. This renders them dark orange. A better developer might give you higher contrast. Or, use of a reversal film. It would be yellow and foggy but might have more appeal.

PE

Top-Cat · May 18, 2009

Photo Engineer said:
All negative color films have a yellow filter layer and most of them have an orange mask. This renders them dark orange. A better developer might give you higher contrast. Or, use of a reversal film. It would be yellow and foggy but might have more appeal.

PE

Which developers are better?
And how do I process slide film in B&W chemicals without ending up with an almost completely black negative?

Bob-D659 · May 18, 2009

Experiment to get the exposure right. Or do a lot of reading on the net via google and try to sort the wheat from the chaff from what you find, then go back to my first sentence.

Top-Cat · May 18, 2009

Bob-D659 said:
Experiment to get the exposure right. Or do a lot of reading on the net via google and try to sort the wheat from the chaff from what you find, then go back to my first sentence.

I've noticed that some people have changed the film speed to a higher speed, but since I use an F65 I can't do that (I hate it when technology designers treat users like babies!). Will exposure control be able to do the same job like over/underexposing 2-3 steps?

Neal · May 18, 2009

Dear Top-Cat,

You're trying too many things at the same time. Work out your times for the C-41 first, it's fairly easy. Just as you would with a b&w film, you're going to have to bracket your shots to make sure you get a good working exposure index and increase the development time to increase the contrast. I like bracketing full stops. I also like making large changes in time at the beginning. If I were printing using a #5 filter and still got a flat print I would add 50% to my development time. If you are really new to b&w, purchase a good book. Lots of folks recommend "The Negative" by Ansel Adams. It's easy to read but there has to be a more straightforward book out there.

Any of the Kodak b&w film data sheets will illustrate how the contrast changes with time and he Ilford document http://www.ilfordphoto.com/Webfiles/2006130201152306.pdf explains how to adjust contrast in the darkroom.

My apologies if the information I've provided is obvious to you.

Good luck,

Neal Wydra

Bob-D659 · May 18, 2009

Black tape ought to fix the encoding on the film can. Unless there is no other way to set the film speed. I don't know how much manual over ride your camera has, I've never owned any film camera that new.

The orange mask is not going to help when printing.

domaz · May 18, 2009

I believe that you can get strange colors out of C-41 film by first developing it in Rodinal, washing it, then going through with the whole C-41 process. I'm not sure what to search for but you should find it if you look around Google or this site.

Photo Engineer · May 18, 2009

Domaz is not correct. Sorry Domaz.

If you go through with the entire C41 process after a B&W process with color film, you will get a blank piece of film. Since development is complete, as is fixation, nothing takes place except for silver removal across the board, in the C41 process.

I'm afraid that color films in B&W processes are not a good match usually giving low contrast orange red images. You might try other D-19 or D-8 which are high contrast developers, but you are reaching here.

The color reversal film in a B&W process will give a negative image, but with a yellow cast that is lighter than the red-orange cast of color negative films.

PE

srs5694 · May 18, 2009

I interpreted Domaz's suggestion as developing in Rodinal without fixing, then doing the regular C-41 process. Since there's no fixing until after the C-41 development and bleaching, I'd imagine this would leave some image, but I don't know how much or how good it would be.

Domin · May 19, 2009

srs5694 said:
I interpreted Domaz's suggestion as developing in Rodinal without fixing, then doing the regular C-41 process. Since there's no fixing until after the C-41 development and bleaching, I'd imagine this would leave some image, but I don't know how much or how good it would be.

Without fixing what's in the emulsion after b&w dev is silver negative image and some unexposed halide positive image. There is not much for a color dev to develop and all that's there would be removed by bleach and fix.

What makes sense its either fogging the halides to get reversal process or fixing - bleach - reexpose to get what some call acceleration.

Photo Engineer · May 19, 2009

srs5694 said:
I interpreted Domaz's suggestion as developing in Rodinal without fixing, then doing the regular C-41 process. Since there's no fixing until after the C-41 development and bleaching, I'd imagine this would leave some image, but I don't know how much or how good it would be.

You would probably get a weak color positive image with this proposal.

PE

pgomena · May 19, 2009

A process I learned in school involved underexposing color slide or negative film by one to two stops, processing it in straight Acufine, fixing it, bleaching it, re-exposing it to light, and running either film through C-41 chemistry. The process was called "film acceleration," and it was a blast to play with.

Films started to change about the time I finished school, and C-41 films no longer worked well. I most enjoyed using higher-speed films like Ektachrome 200, Agfachrome 1000, and the old Scotch 100 chrome and continued to use them for some time. The results were contrasty but printable negatives with enormous, sharp grain. It was a process given to experimentation, which allowed you to control the resulting negatives through exposure and the first development. Finer-grained films work well but tend to be contrastier, and by gosh, Kodak and Fuji both improved their high-speed chrome films to the point where it became tough to produce a lot of grain.

If anyone is interested, I can post the basic process here, or maybe better yet in the articles section because it would be a pretty long post. It's a lot of fun, especially for analog color printing. I haven't done it for several years because I no longer print color in a darkroom and my scanner isn't good enough to resolve 35mm very well.

Peter Gomena

2F/2F · May 19, 2009

First of all, what is it that you want to achieve and why?

Have you considered trying a black and white film in a black and white developer or a C-41 black and white film in C-41 in order to get what you want? What is it that you want?

domaz · May 19, 2009

Yes the film acceleration is what I was thinking of. Here's the link. Looks interesting.

Photo Engineer · May 19, 2009

The film acceleration is a well known process and requires a rehal bleach. For this reason it is calle in the trade, a rehal or rehalogenation process sequence. You can go through this process a number of times if you omit the final bleach and fix and by this means you can jack the contrast up sky high. However, negative films have a definite limit to dmax as they are what we call "coupler limited" for good sharpness and grain.

Sequence:

B&W or color develop
wash or stop or best, acid clear
if stop or clear, then wash
fix
wash

Reenter here from point marked below, but first use clear bath and wash.

rehal bleach (50 g/l Potassium Ferricyanide and 50 g/l Sodium Bromide at pH 5.5)
wash
clear (50 g/l Sodium Sulfite)
wash very well. If you carry over sulfte, color development will suffer.
Color develop
wash
----------> repeat above after white light exposure to get desired contrast OR....
bleach
wash
fix
wash
final rinse

Do the final 5 steps only if you wish to terminate the process entirely.

You do not increase speed so much as you increase contrast and therefore the mid range curve that represents the ISO speed value. If the clear is insufficient, you will get high dmin, and if it is not enough or the wash after the clear is insufficient, you will get weak color images.

PE

Ian Grant · May 19, 2009

Astronomers used this technique and called it "Looping".

You might look up Michael Maunders site in the UK, search for Speedibrews. He made a special C41 colour developer for Astrony but it gives seped & contrast.

Ian

2F/2F · May 19, 2009

Mr. PE,

Sounds like a neat technique. Would you mind naming times and temps as well? Is the standard C-41 100F ok for all these steps?

If a "push" is desired, is this a "superior" method to simply using an extended developer time? If so, how?

Thanks.

Photo Engineer · May 19, 2009

All C41 times are normal for the C41 respective solutions.

The bleach bath is about 5 minutes and the clear is about 1 - 2 minutes.

All washes are at least 2 minutes but as much as 5 minutes.

It depends on process method, drum, tank tray etc.....

PE

alapin · May 19, 2009

Top-Cat

There is a C41 group on Flickr, that may be able to help you.
Here is a link to a discussion about developing C41 in B&W developer.

http://www.flickr.com/groups/ishootfilm/discuss/72157594525605321/?search=c-41+film+in+b&w+chemistry

A second discussion on using diafine.

http://www.flickr.com/groups/blackandwhitec41/discuss/72157600017838303/

Top-Cat · May 20, 2009

2F/2F said:
First of all, what is it that you want to achieve and why?

Have you considered trying a black and white film in a black and white developer or a C-41 black and white film in C-41 in order to get what you want? What is it that you want?

Just for experimentation, and because I'm cheap.
It seems like everything is so much more readily available in the US, here in Norway I can't get anything, not even C-41 chemistry, and the lab won't even let me cross process slides in C-41 because it exhausts the chemicals. Only a few stores sell B&W film, which costs three times as much as color film.

Photo Engineer · May 20, 2009

That is a myth used to get out of cross processing. E6 films in C41 don't exhaust the solutions any more than an equivalent amount of C41 film.

PE

2F/2F · May 20, 2009

Top-Cat said:
Just for experimentation, and because I'm cheap.
It seems like everything is so much more readily available in the US, here in Norway I can't get anything, not even C-41 chemistry, and the lab won't even let me cross process slides in C-41 because it exhausts the chemicals. Only a few stores sell B&W film, which costs three times as much as color film.

Your lab is ignorant of the truth of this matter, or just lying. You should ask your lab's manager to take a look at Kodak data sheet CIS-184: http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/support/techPubs/cis184/cis184.pdf. It talks about doing C-41 film in E-6 chemicals, but it may soften them up. E-6 film in a C-41 process is even "safer", based on my own developing results, though I can't seem to find any online Kodak documentation to prove it. I don't replenish when I do C-41, so I have a 60 roll capacity. I have done two dozen rolls in a gallon of chemistry cross processed, and the rest normal. There weren't any problems at all with the normal C-41. I have processed C-41 and E-6 films in the same tank and nothing bad happened.

If it is that much of a problem, you can consider getting your stuff via mail from Freestyle, or whatever the European version of Freestyle is. (Fotoimpex???)

Good luck!

Cross processing C-41 with rodinal.

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