Cross-processed E6 films for black and white prints

[BetterSense]

I shoot mostly black and white, but my budget keeps me from shooting as much 4x5 as I like.

I recently got a bunch of color sheet film that expired around the year 2000. I imagine it's not any good for color work anymore, but what if I cross-process it in black-and-white chemicals? Could it make a decent black-and-white film? I mean, at least as good as Xray film and paper negatives? What kind of EI can I expect, and will the results fade or otherwise be different to store than B&W film?

 

[Domin]

Actually, negative color film from around 2000 might be perfectly usable straight. Depends on how it was kept and your needs and standards.

You should be able to get usable negatives with b&w chemistry. From what I've read on the net color negs in b&w chems need a lot of development and turn out grainy.

The base will probably be very dense as I've found that all color films I've tested for this (I was doing some bleach bypass) seem to have some silver antihalation designed to be bleached in the process. Shouldn't be much of a problem when printing optically.

 

[Rick A]

Since its E-6 it will have a clear base. I have had some success processing in diluted and very brown Dektol on C-41 in the past. All I can tell you is to experiment. I dont see any reason you cant use the B&W developer of your choice, and even do a reversal process. Have some fun with it.

 

[BetterSense]

negative color film from around 2000 might be perfectly usable straight.

What about Provia 100, expired in 2001?

I guess I'll shoot some and dunk it in Rodinal and see what I get. I was wonderng about EI though. Most people have told me that to reversal process negative film, you have to expose it a lot more than you would than if you were going to negative process it. That makes me wonder if Provia 100 would make say a 400 speed film if you were going to negative process it.

Also, is the dye in the red layer going to do weird things, or will it all wash out?

 

[Rick A]

If it has been kept frozen it should be alright as is. If not, it will most likely have a color shift, and need special filtration to print.

 

[BetterSense]

I don't know how you print 4x5 transparencies nowadays anyway, other than digitally. I haven't been wanting to spend $4 a sheet on processing to find out if the film is any good or not.

 

[keithwms]

Why not cross process in c41, with a ~2 stop push or so. Just a guess.... something interesting may result. C41 is about as easy and inexpensive as b&w. I mean, you can do c41 at home for peanuts.

 

[Domin]

Why not cross process in c41, with a ~2 stop push or so. Just a guess.... something interesting may result. C41 is about as easy and inexpensive as b&w. I mean, you can do c41 at home for peanuts.

Why push? Slides, even outdated, give high contrast and push processing would increase it further.

For xpro I'd shoot provia at box speed choosing subject with not to high contrast. It has rather low contrast for a xprocessed slide.

 

[keithwms]

Why push? Slides, even outdated, give high contrast and push processing would increase it further.

Okay maybe it's not a push per se, but doesn't slide film lose a stop or two of effective speed when you x-process it in c41? Here is a recent, related thread...

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

So you either rate it a stop or two slower or develop longer.... and with older film I am guessing that it'd be closer to two stops.

Anyway, a simple experiment would of course reveal the optimal dev times.

 

[Domin]

I suppose be loosing speed you mean shadow detail. That's secondary to the main problem (or advantage as some would say) which is excessive contrast.

Pushing further increases contrast and does not give much more shadow detail on the neg. It also makes color crossover worse.

Overexposure (in relation to box speed) of 1 or 2 steps alone tends to increase contrast as well, at least with slides I've tested.

Someone here, at apug explained that overexposing slides for xprocess is actually about controling contrast by getting highlights to the shoulder of the curve. I have not seen that at work. I didn't try much; I'm perfectly happy with box speed.

The way to tame contrast is overexpose and then pull.

 

[BetterSense]

I'm not interested in xprocessing slide film in C41. I only have black-and-white processing equipment, so if I were to pay for C41 cross-processing I might as well pay for E6 processing of the expired film and correct the results digitally.

I'm interested in if E6 films can be made into high-quality black and white negatives and how one would go about doing that.

 

[Domin]

I'm not interested in xprocessing slide film in C41. I only have black-and-white processing equipment, so if I were to pay for C41 cross-processing I might as well pay for E6 processing of the expired film and correct the results digitally.

I'm interested in if E6 films can be made into high-quality black and white negatives and how one would go about doing that.

If you want high quality I suggest selling the film and buying fresh b&w of your choice. I'd say its worth trying only if you like the experiment for its own sake.

More probably than not, Provia has silver anti halation layer so processed as b&w negative it will have very dense brown base which will scatter light, lengthen printing and lead to contrast problems on VC papers.

 

[2F/2F]

You have some nice E-6 films. Why not help keep E-6 labs alive and E-6 chemicals produced by processing them as intended? If you want bad b/w results (by traditional criteria), try weird cross processes...but if you want good b/w results (by traditional criteria), use b/w film. It is cheap...and good!

As for the exposure thing when cross processing, IME, color negative film (being a low-contrast medium processed in chemicals designed for an inherently high-contrast medium) loses a ton of contrast and density when shot normally and done in E-6 chems. Thus, I overexpose about two stops when I do this, and usually push one or two. Going the other way around, C-41 chems on E-6 film jack up the contrast. (You are putting an inherently high-contrast film into chemicals that are designed to work with inherently low-contrast films.) The shadows get dropped like mad, and it is easy to lose the high tones, so you don't want to push unless you want contrast that is off the charts. I overexpose E-6 films for cross processing by two stops unless I want totally empty shadows. IME, and in a brief test I did with a MacBeth chart and grey card using EPN and Astia, this gives far less contrast when printing to make middle grey the same as the shot with normal exposure. It changed the six-square grey scale on the chart from about four discernible tones to all six being [barely] discernible. Astia was even lower in contrast, but harder (if not impossible) to get anywhere near standard color, so not a good choice when you want the cross processing effect to be subtle. I don't know, but my guess is that this is due to the extra color later on Fuji films. The films come out tinted heavily green, and prints come out tinted heavily magenta. EPN, on the other hand, was very close to standard color, with just a little bit of a "tweak".

 

[BetterSense]

Provia has silver anti halation layer so processed as b&w negative it will have very dense brown base which will scatter light, lengthen printing and lead to contrast problems on VC papers.

Why doesn't that antihalation layer show up when the film is E6 processed? Is E6 film bleached? I knew C41 film is bleached so all the silver goes away, but I didn't know about E6.

I will probably try having some processed normally. And actually, my salary just went from 25k to 75k in the past hour, so maybe I won't have to pinch film pennies anymore and I can just buy fresh TMAX.

 

[Rick A]

Just shoot a sheet at rated speed and soup it in your favorite develper for whatever you think the film most closely figures (maybe D-76 1+1 for 13mins @ 68f) and go from there. Its only film, dont sweat it. This is your opportunity to be an expert on the subject, so take lotsa notes.

 

[wblynch]

Congratulations BetterSense !!

 

[Domin]

Exposure for crossprocessing

It might be hijacking the thread but I can't help.

As for the exposure thing when cross processing, IME, color negative film (being a low-contrast medium processed in chemicals designed for an inherently high-contrast medium) loses a ton of contrast and density when shot normally and done in E-6 chems. Thus, I overexpose about two stops when I do this, and usually push one or two.

Which films do you mean exactly?
I've found that some (old frozen VPS, 400NC, XP2) need overexposure and push
while other (G200, VX200, Farbwelt, Superia100) work well at box speed or even higher.

Going the other way around,C-41 chems on E-6 film jack up the contrast. (You are putting an inherently high-contrast film into chemicals that are designed to work with inherently low-contrast films.) The shadows get dropped like mad, and it is easy to lose the high tones, so you don't want to push unless you want contrast that is off the charts. I overexpose E-6 films for cross processing by two stops unless I want totally empty shadows.

Again, what films do you mean?
I've tested E64T from 250 to 16 and it shows steady gain of contrast with more exposure when processed in standard c41. RTP from 125 to 16 and E160T from 320 to 80 behave similiar.

Although I've xprocessed most of slide films available I did not test most of them at different speed. I just learned how to use them at box speed. I have yet to see film which actually gets less contrasty with 1 or 2 stops overexposure.

So while this overexposure gets more shadow detail how do you get them to be visible with that contrast? Dodge? What about textured objects (walls, trees) which often become mixture of inky black spots and burned white space?

IME, and in a brief test I did with a MacBeth chart and grey card using EPN and Astia, this gives far less contrast when printing to make middle grey the same as the shot with normal exposure. It changed the six-square grey scale on the chart from about four discernible tones to all six being [barely] discernible. Astia was even lower in contrast, but harder (if not impossible) to get anywhere near standard color, so not a good choice when you want the cross processing effect to be subtle. I don't know, but my guess is that this is due to the extra color later on Fuji films. The films come out tinted heavily green, and prints come out tinted heavily magenta. EPN, on the other hand, was very close to standard color, with just a little bit of a "tweak".

I've never used this particular two. I'll probably never have chance to try EPN, but have some EPP - which IMHO deserves it reputation of giving particulary accurate colors when xprocessed.

As for fuji films, I've found that all I've tried give much less natural colors than kodak. Green tint and clean base while kodak looks much more normal negative.

 

[Rick A]

Why doesn't that antihalation layer show up when the film is E6 processed? Is E6 film bleached? I knew C41 film is bleached so all the silver goes away, but I didn't know about E6.

I will probably try having some processed normally. And actually, my salary just went from 25k to 75k in the past hour, so maybe I won't have to pinch film pennies anymore and I can just buy fresh TMAX.

The antihalation layer washes off leaving the clear base. If you would like, send me the film, I'll shoot it and experiment with the B&W processing, and report back to you how much fun I am having, and I'll post the results here for all to see. BTW, congrats on the raise.