crop or no cropping

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do you crop

  • yes

    Votes: 40 51.9%
  • no

    Votes: 10 13.0%
  • not a lot, but sometimes

    Votes: 27 35.1%

  • Total voters
    77

removed account4

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for the longest time i used to crop with my camera,
i did everything so i could print "full frame/full negative"
and it was great. i trained myself to do all that stuff
and saw better because of it. now ...
i am going through sheet after sheet after sheet of negatives
sometimes weeks, sometimes years later. i see the film
with a different eye now, and crop things out while i print.
maybe i just want the OOF background ...
maybe crop someone or something that i think doesn't work anymore.

are you a cropper?
just the edges, or would you consider cropping out most of the negative.
 

Alex Bishop-Thorpe

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For the last few years the only thing I've had access to was a negative scanner, so I always composed full frame and scanned the negative to see the results. Now I have a proper darkroom (took me a few years to piece it all together), I print the same way. It's just kind of habit, but it's interesting to see old photos in new ways.
 

Steve Smith

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I usually crop - mainly because the paper aspect ratio is not the same as the paper available. I do try to use the full frame of film though and never think about cropping at the taking stage.

The exception to this is the square images from my Rolleicord. Due to some strange edge diffracting effect of my home made 6x 6 holder which I like, I normally print these full frame including the edge - like this one: (there was a url link here which no longer exists)


Steve.
 

23mjm

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I tend to crop the final print a lot. When I shoot MF and LF I visualize the print I want then I over shoot it some just in case, also you may not get the exact composition you want in the view finder, but when printing the pic--we will say "if you cut off the top" then it is how I visualized it! I would say 90% cropped, 10% full frame.
 

snallan

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If the print I desire requires it, I crop; if the full frame has what I want, I don't.
 

pesphoto

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It depends for me.
Some images I would never crop, others I do play around with different crops.
It's just part of being creative. I see nothing wrong with it if it enhances a photo.
The new Robert Frank "Americans" book coming out is going to show the same images from the last printing, but Frank decided to show the uncropped versions this time. So even the "greats" crop sometimes.
 

Ian Grant

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For personal work I always shoot tight to the frame and never crop, regardless of the aspect ratio/film format, I've never found this a problem. I do shoot a number of formats 35mm, 645, 6x9 6x17 as well as 5x4 and 10x8, and in the very near future will be using 6x6 again.

Ian
 

jeroldharter

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If you are enlarging negative, it makes no sense to "never crop." When you take a photo you are of course "cropping" the scene. Limiting the print to what you cropped in the field seems pointless.
 

MurrayMinchin

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Nature has a way of not presenting itself to me in precise 4x5 segments for every photograph. I work really hard on my corners and edges trying to create a rhythm, a balance, or a balanced imbalance, but once in a while some annoying branch, rock, or blank patch of sky just has to walk the plank.

I have a feeling you're going to ramp this urge up into yet another amazing display of creativity. Even when not photographing but simply looking at old negatives you just can't stop yourself, can you? If I was the head of a university fine arts department I'd pay you handsomely to come in and slap the blinders off my students!

Murray
 

Bob Carnie

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This is a good topic, one that has strong arguments on both sides.

Professionally , as a printer I refuse to do any cropping for clients work , other than minimal to square up an image, I have always felt that the work should be done in the camera regarding composition. I think by cropping at the printing stage allows one to be sloppy when photographing.

For my own work I usually include the black border of all my work, this allows me the ability to get on to the task of making a good print rather than in the darkroom making any decisions re crop.

For show work the consistancy of format, negative grain size and apperance is very critical and far outweighs IMO any last minute changes to image size , shape or composition.. It is very obvious when walking into a room and seeing a mix mash of sizes and image ratio's that the photographer has cropped , and this is not appealing to me and makes me feel the photographer is unsure of their work.
 

Toffle

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I think in some ways this plays into the "zoom with your feet" argument. There are often compositions that do not allow me to fill the frame the way I would like while respecting the laws of physics - where is it physically impossible to get closer to my subject without sprouting wings. Or where getting closer changes the arrangement/importance of elements in the frame. With 35mm I unashamedly use zoom to compose/fill the frame. With MF, I crop when and as necessary.
 
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I think Bob is making a good statement and case here. But... :smile:

Recently, on my amateur level, I was photographing a play my son's high school put up. I was in the last row of the auditorium with a tripod and a Mamiya 645 and a 300mm lens. If I had not cropped some of the prints I made, they would have been so full of clutter. Instead, when I photographed I imagined the way I was going to crop it to try to make the most out of the negatives. If I have ever wished for a telephoto zoom lens, this was the occasion.

With that said, I really try to use the full negative as often as possible. But as the years go, my vision changes and I see things differently from when I exposed the negative. Already in the last five years my approach has changed drastically.
I do agree with the notion to try to get it right 'in camera', but sometimes I have a square format camera and want a rectangular print when everything is said and done. Sometimes I want a square image when I shoot a rectangular format. And taking those crops into consideration would be 'getting it right in the camera' too, wouldn't it? I don't think the camera format should dictate how you print in the darkroom. I think you would be robbing yourself of making the most out of any print if you do.
To me, trying to get it right twice just means you tried harder.

I think if you want to convey a message with a print, it is my opinion that the actual composition, the content, and the vision of the photographer is the most important. If that adversely affects the print quality to a small extent, then I am very willing to sacrifice that to get the message across. Does the viewer really concern themselves that much with grain size and physical dimensions of images, even in a large collection or portfolio?
Do you look at a single print that is really good and that is, say 8x12 inches from a 35mm neg, and exclude it from a show because it doesn't have the same grain pattern, sharpness, and physical dimensions as, say a 10x10 from a medium format neg and exclude it from a show for that reason?
The reason for wanting to include both could be that it's a series continuing over a decade, and that the equipment available along that time line could change.

Bob Carnie obviously has fifty times the experience I have with this sort of thing, so I'm on very thin ice here. But I believe that either you create an image for its individual value and print that image according to your vision for that single image. Whatever cropping has to take place to lift that message forward is allowed.
Then if you're deliberately shooting to create a portfolio you may want to pay attention to make it look coherent. But already at the point where you consider both vertical and horizontal rectangular prints you're deviating from how things are presented.
You could also include older work in a portfolio of certain subject matter, and it could well be shot in a different format.

All things said, one good example of conforming format is a show I saw with David Eisenlord at the Icebox gallery in Minneapolis. All square prints in vertical mats. The presentation was stunning. And then I went to the Minneapolis Institute of Arts and saw two or more prints with Andre Kertesz next to eachother. One a 5x5" color polaroid that looked awesome next to a 16x20 black and white (I forget the name of the print but it was the one with the doorway, stairs, table, and coat rack).

- Thomas
 
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Michel Hardy-Vallée

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Well, I never crop! Unless I need to. Doesn't anybody? :wink:

Re: Bob Carnie's remark, I agree strongly with the problems of a motley assortment on the wall, but it's tough to achieve that consistency. Most pictures I take "accidentally" by walking somewhere and picking what I like, so they do not always fit the same format.

Most of the time, I print 35mm on 8x10, either full frame or cropped to the paper. I try to avoid in-betweens, so at worst I have two different formats rather than an infinite amount.

I just hate trimming paper.
 
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panastasia

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John,

Why would you want to restrict your creativity by not cropping? Even if you prefer black borders you can move the camera and use some black tape for a different "crop", unless your trying to save film. To adhere to a cameras format will restrict the creative process, that's one of the reasons there is custom framing available.

Those who believe that a high level of expertise is all about following strict rules in photography are only achieving technical expertise, and sacrificing creativity at a higher level. Creative people are the ones who break silly rules of aesthetics.

Paul
 
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Fintan

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Not a lot but sometimes covers me, I like to get it right in camera but if a print can be improved by cropping then, lets get cropping.
 

PVia

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I agree with most of Bob Carnie's reply, and usually have never cropped with 6x7 and 4x5 formats.

Recently, I acquired a Leica, my first 35mm in over 20 years and find myself cropping more in the darkroom with the images from it. It may be that I'm still getting used to the format. I find myself making square and 6x7 format images with the cropping...
 

mooseontheloose

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Absolutely -- but that may be due more to my own limitations at the taking stage than at the printing stage. I also have a bad habit of never keeping my horizons straight (without a tripod), so a little cropping has always helped me there. ;-) Also, I'm in the strange situation where I'm starting to print negatives more than a year after they were taken. What I'm looking for now in the picture is different than what I did at the moment of capture. However, I am trying to print everything at the same aspect ratio (one size for rectangular photos, one for square) because all of the different sized prints I've been doing are now proving problematic.

That being said, for a long time I never realized there was such a debate amongst photographers about this issue. Cropping happens naturally when switching between paper sizes, and there are many situations (for me at least) where it is impossible to frame exactly what I want due to physical or speed limitations, so if I had to limit myself to full frame I wouldn't have a lot of photos that I was happy with. Don't many of us here feel that while it's important to get the right exposure in the camera, that the final vision is what occurs in the darkroom? (Isn't there a quote somewhere that the exposure is the score and the print the performance?) I understand that if you knew that when you took the picture you wanted to print everything as is, but otherwise why limit yourself? I enjoy being able to look at negs and find new interpretations that I can explore with in the darkroom, without being limited to my original intent.
 

dpurdy

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In general no but since a Rolleiflex screen doesn't show the whole image I sometimes have to crop a little bit to get rid of something I didn't intend to be there. generally if the image doesn't work in the camera I don't push the button. Also I find I have the annoying habit of leaning a bit to the right when I shoot so I have to crop a little to straighten it out. Back to the original vision again.

However I shamelessly flop!! If it reads better the other direction I flop it over and make a note of it.
 

Lee Shively

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I normally print everything to format proportions. That's because I compose within the frames of the formats I use--6x4.5, 35mm, 6x6. I keep those proportions for my prints but I have no problem with cropping the negative to improve the composition.

I've been using a Leica rangefinder for several years and I sometime find it ironic that many people who shoot with these cameras make a point of printing or having their negatives printed full frame with black borders as confirmation. Don't get me wrong--I love using the Leica and I have other rangefinder cameras I also use and like. But rangefinders are not 100% exact as to what the viewfinder/framelines show compared to what is on the negative. Precise compositions are not what these cameras are all about. A little cropping around the edges can often improve a photo a lot.
 

Ian Grant

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Why would you want to restrict your creativity by not cropping?
Paul
How does not cropping restrict your creativity, it could be argued that it's the other way around. As Bob Carnie and others have said it's far better to compose with the camera.

The truly creative people break the rules when they shoot the images, not in hind-site by trying to recompose in the darkroom from a poorly framed image.

Ian
 

eddym

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I Due to some strange edge diffracting effect of my home made 6x 6 holder which I like, I normally print these full frame including the edge - like this one: (there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Steve, I get a similar effect with all the negative holders of my Beseler 45 enlarger, so when I do print full frame, I like to include those edges, as you did in your example.

However, I have never believed in the mantra that the negative format is sacred. I hardly ever crop radically, but I have no qualms in printing a square format neg as a rectangle, or a 35mm negative as an 8x10. I see composing as a two-step process: once in the viewfinder, the second time on the enlarging easel. I've never seen a camera yet with movable easel blades. :wink:
 

DannL

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I always try to compose my pictures with a generous excess of "real estate" around the primary subject. This allows me ample working area in the negative to create the best composition in print. I never imposed unnecessary restrictions on myself. The task of cropping/masking is described in many books on photography. Having a basic knowledge of what constitutes a good composition is essential to good photography. How one arrives at the best composition is irrelevant, as long as no one's safety is placed in jeopardy. For example: Stepping backward off a cliff while trying to compose on the ground glass. That could have been me last October.
 
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panastasia

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How does not cropping restrict your creativity, it could be argued that it's the other way around. As Bob Carnie and others have said it's far better to compose with the camera.

The truly creative people break the rules when they shoot the images, not in hind-site by trying to recompose in the darkroom from a poorly framed image.

Ian

Yes Ian, if you see it the other way around then that's fine. The message we get from reading all the posts is clear - most people crop for a better composition - sometimes, later, we see our own work with a different eye, we evolve in a sense; sometimes we see our unique style emerging, and we fine tune it.

I agree, wholeheartedly, with you, Bob and others; when it come to working the machine, get it right the first time, but don't limit the possibilities by saying that's it, for the creative process ends there. Leave yourself open to a wider scope. Yes, "it could be argued" but why bother. Who would win? Who makes the rules? There are no rules - it's too personal.

Paul
 

CBG

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I'm not comfortable with helter skelter cropping after the fact. I want to have a sure sense of the intent of am imega as it is taken, but...

At the same time, I don't believe that each image opportunity is ideally framed within one or another arbitrary rectangle originating somewhere in photographic history. I want the ability to see my image as a little less tall than the frame or narrower or whatever. Each subject sets it's own ideal format. I believe in cropping to it.

C
 
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