crooked landscapes!

mporter012 · Aug 3, 2013

Yes, this is kinda what I thought. Maybe others can speak to why a level necessarily corrects the issue?

Mark

E. von Hoegh said:
The horizon is only level at sea. On land it can vary. A level is only useful if it is adjusted so the bubble is centered when the camera is level. Gridlines are your only really useful tool here, as anyone who uses a view camera for architecture can attest.

cliveh · Aug 3, 2013

mporter012 said:
Yes, this is kinda what I thought. Maybe others can speak to why a level necessarily corrects the issue?

Mark

If you are doing architectural photography, most buildings are built vertical to the ground, so if you use a spirit level to level the camera, the verticals of the building should be vertical (as long as you don't point the camera up, in which case you may need rising front to correct this.

markbarendt · Aug 3, 2013

mporter012 said:
I'm not completely comprehending how leveling my camera necessarily levels my image?

Mark

Forget the lens for a moment, because with well designed, well corrected, normal rectilinear lenses, the lens is essentially irrelevant to parallax.

The orientation of the film to the subject controls the parallax relationships.

If the film is paralel to the actual important verticals and horizontals in your scene then those verticals and horizontals will be straight on the film too.

A hot shoe or spot level is a pretty darn good way to get roll and pitch very close, yaw requires visual correction regardless.

The problem with a level is that in the real world there is precious little, if anything, that is truly and perfectly vertical or horizontal when compared to anything else; thats just a fact of life on a "round" world.

StoneNYC · Aug 3, 2013

lxdude said:
The OP has mentioned elsewhere having a Nikon FE2

Whoops, I was thinking the FED2 not FE2 haha doh!!

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mporter012 · Aug 3, 2013

[/QUOTE]The problem with a level is that in the real world there is precious little, if anything, that is truly and perfectly vertical or horizontal when compared to anything else; thats just a fact of life on a "round" world.[/QUOTE]

It is still up for debate whether the world if round or flat

mporter012 · Aug 3, 2013

chriscrawfordphoto said:
I carry a small pocket sized carpenter's level. You can get one at a hardware store or Walmart for a few dollars. I have several so that one lives in each of my camera bags. Using it eliminated my tilted horizon problems.

Can you explain exactly how a level will resolve tilted horizons or tilted landscapes? I'm not really comprehending it in my head. It appears to me that a level camera is irrelevant to a level photograph...

Thanks! (I'm sure this will click soon enough)

Mark

lxdude · Aug 3, 2013

It gives a true level, so that the image will appear as it appears to the person looking at the actual scene.
We automatically "self-level" constantly, through our sense of balance. Looking through a viewfinder or at a groundglass image, it is not always easy to perceive tilt, as we, not being tilted, are not sensing tilt while looking at the image. We therefore have to determine tilt, instead of just knowing it. By putting a level on the camera, we determine that we have eliminated tilt.

markbarendt · Aug 3, 2013

mporter012 said:
Can you explain exactly how a level will resolve tilted horizons or tilted landscapes? I'm not really comprehending it in my head. It appears to me that a level camera is irrelevant to a level photograph...

Thanks! (I'm sure this will click soon enough)

Mark

Used to correct roll, clockwise or counter-clockwise, a level helps get the upper and lower film edges into paralel with the perfect theoretical horizon.

Used to correct pitch, getting the film plane absolutely vertical, gets vertical subjects, like trees, buildings, people, etc... to stand up straight.

Yaw in relation to the subject is one wild card here that can mess with a perfectly level camera.

In the middle of the ocean it doesn't matter because the horizon, regardless of what the flat earthers say , is simply limited by the curve of the earth it is essentially the same distance from the camera regardless of the direction you look, this is as close as we get to a perfect theoretical horizon.

On land the distance to the horizon can be limited by any number of things, as the camera is swung left or right only a horizon line exactly half way between top and bottom of the frame will remain parallel to the top and bottom on the film. Horizontal lines above and below the middle will tilt more and more as yaw increases, this effect also gets more pronounced the further you get toward the edges of the frame. This effect is easy to see if you take a shot of a building straight across a street, then swing the whole camera left or right for a second shot.

Alan Gales · Aug 3, 2013

E. von Hoegh said:
The horizon is only level at sea. On land it can vary. A level is only useful if it is adjusted so the bubble is centered when the camera is level. Gridlines are your only really useful tool here, as anyone who uses a view camera for architecture can attest.

I completely agree. I level my tripod and camera as a starting point. I either use grid lines to make sure it looks level in the photograph or just "eye ball it" at level if I'm using a camera without grid lines. Gridlines do really help.

Being level or not being level doesn't matter. What matters is that the resulting photograph appears level if that is what you are trying to achieve.

markbarendt · Aug 3, 2013

Alan Gales said:
Being level or not being level doesn't matter. What matters is that the resulting photograph appears level if that is what you are trying to achieve.

Yep.

The beauty of a camera with movements is that you can manipulate the horizon and ...

Bill Burk · Aug 3, 2013

I carry a horizontal level and use it when practical. Other times I level the camera by eye, just taking my eye from the finder and looking to see if the camera is crooked. Obviously works only when on tripod (most often that means I get ready to take the shot, take my eye off the finder and realize the camera is significantly skewed and I correct THAT).

ic-racer · Aug 3, 2013

mporter012 said:
Can you explain exactly how a level will resolve tilted horizons or tilted landscapes? I'm not really comprehending it in my head. It appears to me that a level camera is irrelevant to a level photograph...

Thanks! (I'm sure this will click soon enough)

Mark

The horizon tends to be exactly perpendicular to the pull of gravity. So a bubble or pendulum 'level' [noun] is a fantastic aid to making the top edge of the film plane parallel to the horizon.

mesantacruz · Aug 4, 2013

This is true, as i've not been around the world and therefore couldn't necessarily attest to this 'fact'... what i can attest to is that it is indeed slightly curved.

budrichard · Aug 4, 2013

"If the film is paralel to the actual important verticals and horizontals in your scene then those verticals and horizontals will be straight on the film too. "

Finally someone explains the crux of the problem!
If you understand the basic principles than you can do better composition.
The film plane must always be parallel to the plane of the scene you are photographing or distortion will result.
I use a 24mm with SLR and 21mm with Rangefinder, no level, no tripod, no ground glass with grid but knowing the physics can minimize the effects.
So without a tilting lens such as the Nikkor series of Perspective Control lenses or view camera, there will be times that you can't avoid distortion but at least you will understand why.-Dick

mporter012 · Aug 4, 2013

Seriously though, I think I heard this on The Daily Show, so not exactly a academic source, but there is a alliance or group somewhere in the world that is disputing whether the world actually is round!

mesantacruz said:
This is true, as i've not been around the world and therefore couldn't necessarily attest to this 'fact'... what i can attest to is that it is indeed slightly curved.

mporter012 · Aug 4, 2013

budrichard said:
"If the film is paralel to the actual important verticals and horizontals in your scene then those verticals and horizontals will be straight on the film too. "

Finally someone explains the crux of the problem!
If you understand the basic principles than you can do better composition.
The film plane must always be parallel to the plane of the scene you are photographing or distortion will result.
I use a 24mm with SLR and 21mm with Rangefinder, no level, no tripod, no ground glass with grid but knowing the physics can minimize the effects.
So without a tilting lens such as the Nikkor series of Perspective Control lenses or view camera, there will be times that you can't avoid distortion but at least you will understand why.-Dick

Thanks Dick - this is beginning to make sense. When I ventured into photography, I didn't realize I was delving into physics, in addition to chemistry and advanced mathematics. Art, I was expecting, but the others have blindsided me!

mporter012 · Aug 4, 2013

lxdude said:
It gives a true level, so that the image will appear as it appears to the person looking at the actual scene.
We automatically "self-level" constantly, through our sense of balance. Looking through a viewfinder or at a groundglass image, it is not always easy to perceive tilt, as we, not being tilted, are not sensing tilt while looking at the image. We therefore have to determine tilt, instead of just knowing it. By putting a level on the camera, we determine that we have eliminated tilt.

Ok, yea this is helpful. I'm beginning to piece it together. Now I need to go buy a $400 level from B&H

markbarendt · Aug 4, 2013

mporter012 said:
Ok, yea this is helpful. I'm beginning to piece it together. Now I need to go buy a $400 level from B&H

Not that I believe you're actually going to buy a $400 level, but since you brought up a number... Why not spend that money to go to a Large Format camera workshop or similar learning opportunity where you could actually see the effects of changing the orientation of the film in relation to the scene.

Heck you might even be able to find somebody fairly close to you with a view camera that has the appropriate movements and be able to bribe them into taking you to the field to show you how swings and tilts of the back work.

Bill Burk · Aug 4, 2013

No, not the expensive stuff. When I go out serious backpacking, all I take is the yellow-green tube removed from the cheapest level I could find.

Should have seen me scrounging for a stick long enough to reach it when it rolled under a rock...

Vilk · Aug 4, 2013

hey, didn't know there was a club for crooky horizoners--where do i sign up?

luckily, not a biggie in the darkroom, unless you welded your easel to the base... just a wee bit lossy in scanning

(my contribution to the club would be a marvelously dumb one--all my life my horizons were dippin' on the right, so i used to think my right hand was "heavy" and compensated by making sure i push up ever so slightly... with the obvious result. just understood it last winter :confused

StoneNYC · Aug 4, 2013

mporter012 said:
Seriously though, I think I heard this on The Daily Show, so not exactly a academic source, but there is a alliance or group somewhere in the world that is disputing whether the world actually is round!

Well, technically the earth ISN'T round, it's not a sphere, it's more ovular in shape... Just sayin'...

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StoneNYC · Aug 4, 2013

mporter012 said:
Thanks Dick - this is beginning to make sense. When I ventured into photography, I didn't realize I was delving into physics, in addition to chemistry and advanced mathematics. Art, I was expecting, but the others have blindsided me!

I agree, never realized that either ...

Also, just get a tripod head with a level built into it like me

And Bill... Haha oh no!!

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lxdude · Aug 5, 2013

mporter012 said:
Seriously though, I think I heard this on The Daily Show, so not exactly a academic source, but there is a alliance or group somewhere in the world that is disputing whether the world actually is round!

The best known group is The Flat Earth Society

John Koehrer · Aug 5, 2013

Evidence from the space shuttle suggests the earth is a disc. As the shuttle goes "around" the world the illusion of a round or ovoid is actually a psychological phenomenon.

StoneNYC · Aug 5, 2013

John Koehrer said:
Evidence from the space shuttle suggests the earth is a disc. As the shuttle goes "around" the world the illusion of a round or ovoid is actually a psychological phenomenon.

I can't tell if you're being facetious or not...

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crooked landscapes!

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