Critque/verify my print making processes (RC & FB prints)...

avizzini · Dec 31, 2018

I’ve done darkroom printing in the past in a community darkroom. I’ve decided to start printing at home (the community darkroom is expensive).

I've decided to use the Eco Pro chemicals. For now I’ll be doing RC prints with Ilford’s MG paper, eventually going to their FB. Realistic max print size is 11x14.

Piecing together information gathered from Eco Pro’s technical documents this is what I’ve come up with…

For the chemicals:
Eco Pro Paper Developer 1:9 @ ~20°c
Eco Pro Stop Bath 1:31 @ ~20°c
Eco Pro Fixer 1:4 @ ~20°c
*Eco Pro Hypo wash 1:19 @ ~20°c

RC paper printing…
The step-by-step process:

Place print in the developer for 1m30s with continuous agitation.
Drip dry print for ~10s-15s.
Place print in the stop bath for 30s with continuous agitation.
Drip dry print for ~10s-15s.
Place print in the fixer for 1m with continuous agitation.
Drip dry print for ~10s-15s.
*Place print in the hypo wash for 3m with continuous agitation.
Drip dry print for ~10s-15s.
Place print in the washing tray for 2m with continuous running water (print washer tray w/hose, tiny jets, & drainage)
Hang to dry for 10m-20m

Assuming I transitioned into FB paper…
The step-by-step process:

Place print in the developer for 2m with continuous agitation.
Drip dry print for ~10s-15s.
Place print in the stop bath for 30s with continuous agitation.
Drip dry print for ~10s-15s.
Place print in the fixer for 1m with continuous agitation.
Drip dry print for ~10s-15s.
Place print in the washing tray for 1m with continuous running water.
Drip dry print for ~10s-15s.
Place print in the hypo wash for 5m with continuous agitation.
Drip dry print for ~10s-15s
Place print in the washing tray for 10m with continuous running water (print washer tray w/hose, tiny jets, & drainage, I’d do 1 print at a time)
Drying/Mounting method TBD

Questions, especially for those who use Eco Pro chemicals…
I’m open to any recommendations to improve things! Keeping in mind I’m working with limited space and want to keep expenses down.

RC Questions

Does this seem to be a good process for developing RC prints, ones that should at least give me prints that last a few decades? I’ve read that toning can increase longevity but, with my tiny apartment darkroom, I’m concerned about the fumes and whether or not it’s worth the hassle just for archiving reasons. I’d go to fiber before bothering with toning.

Are there any steps missing? Are my development, fixing, and washing times good? I feel like the fixing time and washing time might be low? I’m not sure, I'm just going by what I believe the documents say.

* Step 7, for this seemingly optional step when using RC paper, is this the correct point in the process to use the hypo wash? According to eco pro, this increases the fixer’s capacity? Can sodium sulfite be a cheap alternative?

FB Questions

Does this seem to be a good process for developing FB prints?

Is my development time adequate?

For step 9, I’ve also heard sodium sulfite can be a cheap alternative?

I understand that fix/washing/drying are the big differences with FB paper printing, are my times adequate? These numbers are from Eco Pro docs, assuming I read them correctly.

Estimated capacity of each chemical:
Developer exhaustion: single session then dump
Stop Bath exhaustion: single session then dump
(Optional) Hypo Wash exhaustion: ~50 sheets
Fixer exhaustion: ~30 RC / 15 FB sheets & w/Hypo Wash ~80 RC / 50 FB sheets

koraks · Dec 31, 2018

Your FB wash is not really archival. Give it 30-60 minutes. You can use a tbsp of washing soda to a liter of water for step 9 if you don't want to buy hypo clear.

Bill Burk · Dec 31, 2018

I would also point out that two bath fixer is often specified for archival processing.

avizzini · Dec 31, 2018

koraks said:
Your FB wash is not really archival. Give it 30-60 minutes. You can use a tbsp of washing soda to a liter of water for step 9 if you don't want to buy hypo clear.

Even with the hypo clear and only doing 1 print?

For a 11x14 FB print with the print washer tray, what's a time to aim for given the hypo clear? Does that time factor in the time spent in water before the hypo clear as well as the time spent in the hypo clear? (X Time minus ~6mins).

Bill Burk said:
I would also point out that two bath fixer is often specified for archival processing.

What are the specific benefits to this, are they significant? My only aprehension is that I have limited tray space. I'm already at 4 11x14 trays plus the washer.

canuhead · Dec 31, 2018

You can do one fix bath, but you're going to need to be very fastidious about testing to find your time to make sure prints are fixed properly. You can use selenium to test for adequate fixing, but keep in mind your single fix bath won't last as long as with the two bath method. regardless, one minute in fix is not enough time.

avizzini · Dec 31, 2018

canuhead said:
You can do one fix bath, but you're going to need to be very fastidious about testing to find your time to make sure prints are fixed properly. You can use selenium to test for adequate fixing, but keep in mind your single fix bath won't last as long as with the two bath method. regardless, one minute in fix is not enough time.

With 1 minute not being enough, Is this referring to FB or both. What is an adequate time to aim for?

If two bath is the standard then, what is the general fixing time to be split between the two baths? Are two baths worth it for RC?

canuhead · Dec 31, 2018

two bath isn't necessary for RC and one minute or so shld be fine as well. FB is where you need proper fixing and that includes not leaving it in the fix longer than necessary as it means more work to wash it out. I find with a hypo clearing bath like Permawash etc., a print should be done after an hour (or so) using a good archival washer (Kostiner, EcoWash, Summitek etc...). Again, it's best to test to make sure prints are adequately washed. Then when u have a standard time for proper fixing and washing, adhere to the process and don't skimp or cheat.

removed account4 · Dec 31, 2018

do yourself a favor and get a residual fixer test kit so you can determine if your wash methods work.
don't go by what people tell you to do but test your methods yourself and see if they work...
i use perma wash and double their wash time and/ or do 20 fill and dumps.
the problem with photography is people tend to tell people what to do, because they do it .. but what
works for me or jim or bobby or stevie might not work for you.
have a great new year ! and good luck with your photo-ing !
john

avizzini · Dec 31, 2018

jnanian said:
do yourself a favor and get a residual fixer test kit so you can determine if your wash methods work.
don't go by what people tell you to do but test your methods yourself and see if they work...
i use perma wash and double their wash time and/ or do 20 fill and dumps.
the problem with photography is people tend to tell people what to do, because they do it .. but what
works for me or jim or bobby or stevie might not work for you.
have a great new year ! and good luck with your photo-ing !
john

I'll look to get the residual fixer test kit. I assume something like this http://stores.photoformulary.com/residual-hypo-test/ achieve that?

I realize times are impossible to say for certain, I just want something that'd at least put me in a realistic range.

canuhead · Dec 31, 2018

but also test for proper fixing, as adequate washing means jack, if the prints aren't fixed. you need the first, to achieve the second

removed account4 · Dec 31, 2018

avizzini said:
I'll look to get the residual fixer test kit. I assume something like this http://stores.photoformulary.com/residual-hypo-test/ achieve that?

I realize times are impossible to say for certain, I just want something that'd at least put me in a realistic range.

hi avizzini

usually the chemicals have info for fix times, papers do too...
for call the manufacturer and they will tell you ...
i wouldn't want to tell you times to fix &c cause i have never used them. not sure
how anyone can tell you what the times are either if they haven't used the same chemistry
and film and paper you are using.
cause there is no 1 stop shopping that is a time for all chemicals and all papers/films

adelorenzo · Jan 1, 2019

koraks said:
Your FB wash is not really archival. Give it 30-60 minutes.

Bill Burk said:
I would also point out that two bath fixer is often specified for archival processing.

canuhead said:
regardless, one minute in fix is not enough time.

Disagree with the above. In terms of fixing and washing, what the OP has set out is the archival processing sequence specified by Ilford. In fact Ilford goes so far as to say that their papers benefit from shorter washing times.

I use this all the time. You do need to make sure you are using strong, fresh fixer.

Bill Burk · Jan 1, 2019

Ok, the sequence is similar to Ilford’s archival processing steps.

They depend on you working fast with strong, fresh fix.

Go for it.

MattKing · Jan 1, 2019

I can't see any way how using a #7 "Hypo Wash" step with RC paper is going to improve fixer capacity. Nor do I see any way that it will aid in washing RC paper.
You probably don't need to drip/dry as long as that between stop bath and fixer.
Otherwise, and assuming that the times are in accordance with Eco Pro manufacturer's recommendations, the RC procedures look good.
You may want to experiment with longer developing times, because sometimes it helps to use them, particularly if you start developing multiple prints at the same time.
Be sure to monitor capacity issues carefully. The chemicals begin to behave quite differently as they approach their end points.

avizzini · Jan 1, 2019

jnanian said:
hi avizzini

usually the chemicals have info for fix times, papers do too...
for call the manufacturer and they will tell you ...
i wouldn't want to tell you times to fix &c cause i have never used them. not sure
how anyone can tell you what the times are either if they haven't used the same chemistry
and film and paper you are using.
cause there is no 1 stop shopping that is a time for all chemicals and all papers/films

That's where my initial numbers and times were coming from, Eco Pro's documents. Ilford's documents, for their FB MG paper, also give similar recommendations. For instance, they suggest 1 min fix with washing times of 5 min (wash + 10 hypo clear + 5 min). I suppose this is an additional 4 mins of wash compared to what Eco Pro suggests.

adelorenzo said:
Disagree with the above. In terms of fixing and washing, what the OP has set out is the archival processing sequence specified by Ilford. In fact Ilford goes so far as to say that their papers benefit from shorter washing times.

I use this all the time. You do need to make sure you are using strong, fresh fixer.

The plan was to use the strong (1:4) rapid fixer solution, ensuring I don't stretch the fixer too much until I refine the process. I have the trays for including a 2 bath fixer, I may need to get creative to fit it in my working space though.

MattKing said:
I can't see any way how using a #7 "Hypo Wash" step with RC paper is going to improve fixer capacity. Nor do I see any way that it will aid in washing RC paper.
You probably don't need to drip/dry as long as that between stop bath and fixer.
Otherwise, and assuming that the times are in accordance with Eco Pro manufacturer's recommendations, the RC procedures look good.
You may want to experiment with longer developing times, because sometimes it helps to use them, particularly if you start developing multiple prints at the same time.
Be sure to monitor capacity issues carefully. The chemicals begin to behave quite differently as they approach their end points.

I wasn't sure if it a few extra seconds of dripping would help prevent additional chemicals from entering the subsequent tray thus, further exhausting them... perhaps I'm overly cautious here...As for hypo wash, I'm not completely certain either, here's the documentation on it from Eco Pro https://www.digitaltruth.com/products/ecopro_fixandwash.php

Longer dev time fore the FB process? If I understand correctly a 30 seconds here or there of added development time can't really "harm" the print, it'd just come down to consistency with the times? So I could likely add a bit of time. I tend not to do more than one print at a time, it's easier to keep track of what I'm doing.

I'll look into ways at monitoring and testing chemicals. The developer and stop bath shouldn't be much of a problem. They would be dumped after the printing session. I wouldn't be doing tons of prints per session, especially with fiber, just from an economical/time point of view. It's mainly just the fixer I'd have to keep an eye on.

For testing the fixer to see if it's exhausted, I assume I can use something like Edwal Hypo-Check.

Is there a way to test if a print is properly fixed without a more potent chemical like selenium?

RalphLambrecht · Jan 1, 2019

avizzini said:
I’ve done darkroom printing in the past in a community darkroom. I’ve decided to start printing at home (the community darkroom is expensive).

I've decided to use the Eco Pro chemicals. For now I’ll be doing RC prints with Ilford’s MG paper, eventually going to their FB. Realistic max print size is 11x14.

Piecing together information gathered from Eco Pro’s technical documents this is what I’ve come up with…

For the chemicals:
Eco Pro Paper Developer 1:9 @ ~20°c
Eco Pro Stop Bath 1:31 @ ~20°c
Eco Pro Fixer 1:4 @ ~20°c
*Eco Pro Hypo wash 1:19 @ ~20°c

RC paper printing…
The step-by-step process:

Place print in the developer for 1m30s with continuous agitation.

Drip dry print for ~10s-15s.

Place print in the stop bath for 30s with continuous agitation.

Drip dry print for ~10s-15s.

Place print in the fixer for 1m with continuous agitation.

Drip dry print for ~10s-15s.

*Place print in the hypo wash for 3m with continuous agitation.

Drip dry print for ~10s-15s.

Place print in the washing tray for 2m with continuous running water (print washer tray w/hose, tiny jets, & drainage)

Hang to dry for 10m-20m

Assuming I transitioned into FB paper…
The step-by-step process:

Place print in the developer for 2m with continuous agitation.

Drip dry print for ~10s-15s.

Place print in the stop bath for 30s with continuous agitation.

Drip dry print for ~10s-15s.

Place print in the fixer for 1m with continuous agitation.

Drip dry print for ~10s-15s.

Place print in the washing tray for 1m with continuous running water.

Drip dry print for ~10s-15s.

Place print in the hypo wash for 5m with continuous agitation.

Drip dry print for ~10s-15s

Place print in the washing tray for 10m with continuous running water (print washer tray w/hose, tiny jets, & drainage, I’d do 1 print at a time)

Drying/Mounting method TBD

Questions, especially for those who use Eco Pro chemicals…
I’m open to any recommendations to improve things! Keeping in mind I’m working with limited space and want to keep expenses down.

RC Questions

Does this seem to be a good process for developing RC prints, ones that should at least give me prints that last a few decades? I’ve read that toning can increase longevity but, with my tiny apartment darkroom, I’m concerned about the fumes and whether or not it’s worth the hassle just for archiving reasons. I’d go to fiber before bothering with toning.

Are there any steps missing? Are my development, fixing, and washing times good? I feel like the fixing time and washing time might be low? I’m not sure, I'm just going by what I believe the documents say.

* Step 7, for this seemingly optional step when using RC paper, is this the correct point in the process to use the hypo wash? According to eco pro, this increases the fixer’s capacity? Can sodium sulfite be a cheap alternative?

FB Questions

Does this seem to be a good process for developing FB prints?

Is my development time adequate?

For step 9, I’ve also heard sodium sulfite can be a cheap alternative?

I understand that fix/washing/drying are the big differences with FB paper printing, are my times adequate? These numbers are from Eco Pro docs, assuming I read them correctly.

Estimated capacity of each chemical:
Developer exhaustion: single session then dump
Stop Bath exhaustion: single session then dump
(Optional) Hypo Wash exhaustion: ~50 sheets
Fixer exhaustion: ~30 RC / 15 FB sheets & w/Hypo Wash ~80 RC / 50 FB sheets

looks very reasonable at first glance
comments:for FB prints, consider two-bath fixing and don't be surprised if you need to develop for 3 min
also, archival processing will require toning after final wash and then wash again

removed account4 · Jan 1, 2019

avizzini said:
That's where my initial numbers and times were coming from, Eco Pro's documents. Ilford's documents, for their FB MG paper, also give similar recommendations. For instance, they suggest 1 min fix with washing times of 5 min (wash + 10 hypo clear + 5 min). I suppose this is an additional 4 mins of wash compared to what Eco Pro suggests.

sounds good !

have a great new year filled with photo-stuff !
john

MattKing · Jan 1, 2019

avizzini said:
I wasn't sure if it a few extra seconds of dripping would help prevent additional chemicals from entering the subsequent tray thus, further exhausting them... perhaps I'm overly cautious here...As for hypo wash, I'm not completely certain either, here's the documentation on it from Eco Pro https://www.digitaltruth.com/products/ecopro_fixandwash.php

I referenced the stop bath to fixer stage when I referred to dripping time because fixers are designed to deal with reasonable amounts of stop bath carry-over, and because the factors that lead to fixer exhaustion are likely to come into play long before stop bath carry-over has an effect.

avizzini said:
Longer dev time fore the FB process? If I understand correctly a 30 seconds here or there of added development time can't really "harm" the print, it'd just come down to consistency with the times? So I could likely add a bit of time. I tend not to do more than one print at a time, it's easier to keep track of what I'm doing.

My suggestion about extending developing times was made because using them is a useful option, so it is a good idea to be familiar with them. There is nothing wrong with having a standard time that you use most frequently, as long as it is within the manufacturer's recommendations.
I made the suggestion in order to dispel any thought you might have had about a particular time being critical. As you say, it is consistency that matters the most.
In case you want to follow up on something more complex, but more fine tuned on the subject, I'd suggest doing some research on "factorial development". At your stage in the learning process, using it would be more complex than advisable or necessary, but you may find it interesting and informative.

avizzini said:
I'll look into ways at monitoring and testing chemicals. The developer and stop bath shouldn't be much of a problem. They would be dumped after the printing session. I wouldn't be doing tons of prints per session, especially with fiber, just from an economical/time point of view. It's mainly just the fixer I'd have to keep an eye on.

That stop bath doesn't seem to use an indicator, so a useful test to see whether it is still usable is whether it has become "slippery" when you dip your thumb and finger in it and rub them together. If you don't understand what I mean, try that test first with developer and then with fixer and note the difference in feel.
Working strength citric acid based stop baths like Eco Pro will keep for a day or two without problem. Past that, it is probably best to discard them. The acetic acid based stop baths like the Kodak product keep much longer after being diluted for use.
As far as fixer is concerned, it is best to track usage in order to ensure capacity. Come up with something that tracks how many 8"x10" equivalent sheets of paper go through the fixer, and allows you to stop using the fixer when you get close to the manufacturer's recommendation. A piece of paper, a pen and a running total work great. Then transfer that number to a piece of masking tape on the bottle you use to store the partially used fixer until the next session. Partially used fixer can be kept for a fairly long time before re-use.
The same system can be used for developer, although it doesn't keep as long.

avizzini said:
For testing the fixer to see if it's exhausted, I assume I can use something like Edwal Hypo-Check.

Yes, although the capacity tracking is a better choice.

avizzini said:
Is there a way to test if a print is properly fixed without a more potent chemical like selenium?

A retained silver test also works. Selenium isn't as bad as you may think, because with reasonable care it is quite safe.
Hope this all helps.

avizzini · Jan 1, 2019

RalphLambrecht said:
also, archival processing will require toning after final wash and then wash again

I know toning can be a thing for RC but, for FB to be archival it requires toning? What could be expected to happen if I don't (in the longer term)?

MattKing said:
Then transfer that number to a piece of masking tape on the bottle you use to store the partially used fixer until the next session. Partially used fixer can be kept for a fairly long time before re-use.

I already do the same thing with the fixer I user for film. I put some tape on the jug with the date I mixed it and a check for each roll of film fixed with it.

MattKing said:
A retained silver test also works. Selenium isn't as bad as you may think, because with reasonable care it is quite safe.

I'll look into that as well!

Bill Burk · Jan 1, 2019

avizzini said:
I know toning can be a thing for RC but, for FB to be archival it requires toning? What could be expected to happen if I don't (in the longer term)?

If you do a bad job. I mean you just dump several prints in the fix and leave them for 10-15 minutes as you do a whole evening's work, then you shuffle them off to water and leave the water running for a while...

Then you would see mottled brown splotches on your prints in a few years, or maybe right away.

But if you take good care to follow either of the instructions you proposed or another archival process... but leave out the toning.

I think your prints will look fine for a hundred years or so, and maybe even be fine into the foreseeable future.

If you don't tone them, then when you talk about your portfolio. You won't be able to say the prints were toned.

I know that sounds facetious, but when I look at prints in the first wash and ask myself if I want to tone them... I worry more about keeping track of which ones I have and which ones I haven't...

Then I go ahead and tone.

That way I don't have to remember. I can just say everything is selenium toned.

I do all this in four trays, because I dump the developer and stop out... and use a fix tray for toner after I've put away the fixer.

removed account4 · Jan 1, 2019

avizzini said:
I know toning can be a thing for RC but, for FB to be archival it requires toning? What could be expected to happen if I don't (in the longer term)?

hey avizzini
im in a minority here but i don't tone anything. i've submitted photography to archives
and libraries for decades and they do residual chemistry tests and take the work.
( and its processed to last IDK 500 or 800 years ? ) it isn't one of those mandatory things
someone needs to do to make "archival" photographs, that is done at the fix and wash stage...
no selenium toner is1 less chemical in my darkroom, 1 less chemical i am exposed to and 1 less chemical to
worry about how to dispose of ... if it was me learning the ropes, learning how to process and print
selenium toner would be the last thing i would be thinking of... i'd be more worried about not fixing enough
or not washing enough before i brought something else in the picture cause if you have a print that is inadequately
fixed and or washed no amount of selenium toner is going to help ..

YMMV

jvo · Jan 3, 2019

this recent, short thread may provide an understanding of fixers and papers you're grappling with.

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/fixer-concentration-for-prints.164488/

have fun

Arklatexian · Jan 4, 2019

avizzini said:
With 1 minute not being enough, Is this referring to FB or both. What is an adequate time to aim for?

If two bath is the standard then, what is the general fixing time to be split between the two baths? Are two baths worth it for RC?

I don't use either Rc paper nor a rapidfix.. Therefore I fix, after an acid stop, using 2 fixing baths, five minutes in each fixing bath, using a non-hardening fixer, followed by a thirty minute or one hour wash (depending on water temperature) and use hypo-clear. I try to use an exposure time under the enlarger so that I can leave the fiber paper in the paper developer for three minutes, even though the print may look fully developed after two minutes. The extra minute brings out subtle details missing with the shorter time. And, of course, agitate. I knew of one photographer who developed his prints for as long as eight minutes for those subtle details and no, he did not get developer stain nor did I when I tried developing for eight minutes......Regards!

ericdan · Jan 4, 2019

I use Eco Pro fixer, too. It's a neutral fixer and I thought those don't need as much washing?

my last batch of prints:
1. fix 1 minute
2. water holding bath
3. selenium tone 30 sec
4. hour or so wash
5. sepia tone
6. Fuji AgGuard

Photographers Formulary Hypo test doesn't show any stains.
I assume the toners would've made inadequate processing obvious too?

Critque/verify my print making processes (RC & FB prints)...

avizzini

koraks

Moderator

Bill Burk

avizzini

canuhead

avizzini

canuhead

removed account4

avizzini

canuhead

removed account4

adelorenzo

Bill Burk

MattKing

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avizzini

RalphLambrecht

removed account4

MattKing

Moderator

avizzini

Bill Burk

removed account4

jvo

Arklatexian

ericdan

Critque/verify my print making processes (RC & FB prints)...

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