Creating positives from negatives

thuggins · Mar 2, 2009

I recently got an "older" book about 35mm rangefinders, which contained a section on the "plusses and minuses" of various film types. One of the advantages listed under negative film was the ability to produce either prints or positives. There was no explanation of how to create positives from a negative.

Given the orange cast of negative film, it doesn't seem that copying a negative with negative film would get you anything worthwhile. Is anyone familiar with how to produce positives from negatives?

Photo Engineer · Mar 2, 2009

The print films have been discontinued by both Kodak and Fuji. Sorry.

There are other ways, but they involve digital methods and are more suited to hybridphoto.com.

PE

David Grenet · Mar 2, 2009

There is also the possibility of the motion picture print films (and the issues with having to get it processed and low contrast that go with it) or you could try printing onto transparency film and cross-processing in C41. I haven't tried either, but I've heard of both.

nickandre · Mar 2, 2009

You see a roll of such film pop up on ebay from time to time.

keithwms · Mar 2, 2009

There is a maskless c41 film called digibase CN, made by Rollei. It's meant to be easier to scan because of the lack of mask. I suppose you could try to generate a colour positive from that, just by ordinary c41 duping.

I have been experimenting with this film for generating colour negs as the final product and haven't tried to go one step further. I also like the resulting positive prints, without mask correction... they have a curious feel. I uploaded some images here recently that were shot with this film, for example:

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Ektagraphic · Mar 2, 2009

Dale Labs uses some kind of process to turn a roll of print film into slides. I know for sure that there is no digital involved. The end result is on Kodak vision movie film. They don't really offer how they do it.

PHOTOTONE · Mar 2, 2009

Ektagraphic said:
Dale Labs uses some kind of process to turn a roll of print film into slides. I know for sure that there is no digital involved. The end result is on Kodak vision movie film. They don't really offer how they do it.

Print film is color negative. Kodak makes hundreds of miles of motion picture positive color release film. It is designed to make positive images from color negative film. But...it is only 35mm. There is no "secret" it is a standard contact printing of color negative film on Color positive movie film.

Photo Engineer · Mar 2, 2009

Eastman Color Print (ECP) is designed to work specifically with ECN (Eastman Color Negative or Vision Films) and as such does not match the contrast range of consumer and professional still films. This mismatch can give very flat looking pictures if you use ECP with Gold or Portra.

PE

srs5694 · Mar 3, 2009

Hypothetically, if you wanted to generate slides using print films, wouldn't shooting ECN film and then printing onto ECP film work well? Having tried it years ago, I'm not a big fan of ECN film for making conventional prints, but as the contrast matching, etc., for these two films is correct, it seems to me that this would work well. After all, that's how conventional Hollywood movies are made, and this process would be the same, just with still frames rather than movies. Please correct me if I'm overlooking something.

Of course, if the goal is to get both prints and slides from a single roll, the above will involve compromises on the prints side (or a digital step to get the prints).

removed account4 · Mar 3, 2009

seatle film works used to sell film that they would process.
from what i understand it was tail ends of motion picture film ..
and when you sent it to them, you cold get prints or slides ..
i don't think they are around anymore, or if they are their business
has changed.
one way you can get positives from black and white film
is by sending your film to dr5 they will convert it to slide film,
and from what i have seen ( here and elsewhere ) they do a great job!

good luck
john

srs5694 · Mar 3, 2009

Seattle FilmWorks is now known as PhotoWorks. They no longer offer deliver ECN films; their house brand is ordinary C-41 (made by Ferrania, the last I knew). It looks like they're discontinuing their film processing, as of March 13; it seems they're going digital-only.

StorminMatt · Mar 3, 2009

Ektagraphic said:
Dale Labs uses some kind of process to turn a roll of print film into slides. I know for sure that there is no digital involved. The end result is on Kodak vision movie film. They don't really offer how they do it.

I actually tried sending a roll to Ultracolor 100 to them last fall, and was VERY disappointed with the results. I don't know if I just got a bad batch, or if this is what is to be expected of the process. But given the results I saw AND the relatively high cost of the process, I would HIGHLY recommend just using slide film if you want slides.

jnanian said:
one way you can get positives from black and white film
is by sending your film to dr5 they will convert it to slide film,
and from what i have seen ( here and elsewhere ) they do a great job!

Although dr5 gives you positives from B+W film labeled as 'negative film' (ie Ilford, Tmax, TXP, PXP, etc), it is actually a reversal process, NOT a negative process. No positives are made from negatives using dr5.

nworth · Mar 3, 2009

Kodak Vision Color Print Film 2383 and its higher saturation version, Kodak Premier Color Print Film 2393, are still a possibility for printing 35mm color negatives into slides. From the data sheet (http://motion.kodak.com/motion/uploadedFiles/US_plugins_acrobat_en_motion_products_lab_h12383t.pdf), the contrast looks to be a bit higher than color print papers, but that may be fine for projection. These newer print films do not have a rem jet backing, so they should be easier to process. But the standard processing is different from either C-41 or RA-4, although the formulas are available on the web. Short ends may be available.

Photo Engineer · Mar 3, 2009

The contrast of commercial films and professional films is about 0.6 - 0.63 and the papers and now discontinued print films had contrasts of 2.5 to mach with these films. The paper has a Dmax of about 2.2 while the film had a dmax of about 4.0 just like the motion picture print films. This is due to the respective supports, paper and film.

Motion picture film is built to a contrast of about 0.50 and to achieve a print of the same contrast, the contrast of the print material must be about 3.0 or higher.

You can artificially alter these parameters by scanning and manipulation, but if you do direct printing, you will probably not like the results.

PE

thuggins · Mar 3, 2009

Thanks for the responses. Having shot slides pretty much exclusively for a number of years now, I find the experience of looking at prints or scans from negatives to be a big let-down. I was hoping to find a way to turn some of my better old negatives into slides. It doesn't look like this is feasible. :-(

Photo Engineer · Mar 3, 2009

And yet, I do this all the time!

PE

DarkroomExperimente · Mar 3, 2009

before I had an enlarger...I used my macro extender rings and photographed a few negatives with normal B&W film, probably Tri-x, to make simple slides

the original negative didn't fill the frame, but the resulting "slide" wasn't too bad...nuthin' amazing, but at least I could see what the shots looked like & it was fun

analogsnob · Mar 4, 2009

Kodak still makes Duraclear a clear base positive display film. It processes in RA4 at twice the print time. It is a cousin of Duratrans display film. Mounting slides on this material would be inconvienient but not impossible and the resulting slides may or may not reproduce correctly if printed themselves. For display they should be fine.

The process requires a color printing darkroom.

Ektagraphic · Mar 4, 2009

Dwayne's will turn a neg into a slide for $1.10 a slide. Here is the order form http://dwaynesphoto.com/common/Slides to Prints Order Form.pdf
Don't give up ship

removed account4 · Mar 4, 2009

StorminMatt said:
Although dr5 gives you positives from B+W film labeled as 'negative film' (ie Ilford, Tmax, TXP, PXP, etc), it is actually a reversal process, NOT a negative process. No positives are made from negatives using dr5.

what is the difference between a reversal process and a negative process ?
is what the OP is looking for more of a duplicating process than a conversion ...
for what it is worth ... photowarehouse one of the apug advertisers / sponsors sells (or used to sell)
a single step duplicating film that allows you to dup negative to negative or positive to positive
(sorry black and white only ) . it is the same that used to be sold by kodak as so-132.
i have used both the kodak version and the photowarehouse version ...
it is a safelight film, and very slow like azo - it requires a 300watt bulb to expose it,
and then the film is processed in print developer. ( film to film contact print )
i imagine it is the film that was used
on tv and the movies when they show people developing negatives with a safelight on ..

StorminMatt · Mar 5, 2009

Ektagraphic said:
Dwayne's will turn a neg into a slide for $1.10 a slide. Here is the order form http://dwaynesphoto.com/common/Slides to Prints Order Form.pdf
Don't give up ship

$1.10 a slide plus shipping? You have to REALLY like a shot to pay this. Carrying two bodies (one with C41, and one with E6/K14) looks PRETTY cheap in comparison. Of course, it would certainly be less convenient.

jnanian said:
what is the difference between a reversal process and a negative process ?

To make a long story short, in a reversal process, a positive image is created on the original piece of film. This can either be done chemically (as in dr5 or E6) or by re-exposure to light (as in K14 or the Scala process). So all you get back from the lab is a box of slides - no negatives. With a negative process, the original film is developed into negatives (as is usual for C41 and conventional B+W procesing). These negatives would then be used to print images onto a printing film (in a manner somewhat similar to making conventional prints). So you would get back both a box of slides AND negatives.

removed account4 · Mar 6, 2009

StorminMatt said:
To make a long story short, in a reversal process, a positive image is created on the original piece of film. This can either be done chemically (as in dr5 or E6) or by re-exposure to light (as in K14 or the Scala process). So all you get back from the lab is a box of slides - no negatives. With a negative process, the original film is developed into negatives (as is usual for C41 and conventional B+W procesing). These negatives would then be used to print images onto a printing film (in a manner somewhat similar to making conventional prints). So you would get back both a box of slides AND negatives.

thanks matt ...

GeorgeDexter · Jul 29, 2009

Seattle film works changed their name to Photoworks, or something like that a few years ago.

Ektagraphic · Jul 29, 2009

Yes they did and Photoworks no longer develops film.

Creating positives from negatives

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