Crazy way to wash RC paper?

albada · Sep 24, 2022

Ilford published instructions for washing films and paper with minimum water-usage at this link:
WASHING PHOTOGRAPHIC FILM & PAPERS INSTRUCTIONS FOR MINIMUM WATER USAGE
Here's the paragraph about how to wash RC paper:

When dish processing a minimum of 30sec in vigorous fresh running water is required. It is also possible to use a sequence of three trays with still water in. Wash for 15 sec in each, with agitation. Change the water in the trays after each session.

I've been using this 3-tray method, but washing for 30 sec instead of 15. But with a crazy twist:
I'm actually washing in 4 trays, and my first tray is the water stop bath!
So the print goes through these 6 trays in this order: dev-stop-fix-stop-wash1-wash2-wash3.

The reason I put it back in the water-stop tray is to wash off the carry-over of fixer. This carry-over is a large quantity, and by doing this, the wash1 tray receives a trace amount of fixer & dev instead of a large amount of fixer. It seems to me that two trace amounts is better than a large amount. Comments?

Mark

AgX · Sep 25, 2022

But I would not call your 4th bath a stop, but instead the 1st wash.
In a cascade-washing system this is the most "polluted" washing bath. When too polluted it is discarded and substituted by the 2nd washing-bath and all others shove one position up and the 4th washing bath that moment will be fresh water.

koraks · Sep 25, 2022

albada said:
It seems to me that two trace amounts is better than a large amount. Comments?

Someone is going to come along and warn you that this will stain your prints. I can also tell you who this will be.

I'd say if it works for you, it's OK. I don't really see any advantage to it though. As Ilford also states, RC paper doesn't require a lot of washing.

AgX · Sep 25, 2022

What will stain the paper? The "stop" after the fixer is a "water stop bath", thus just an added water bath.

Don_ih · Sep 25, 2022

AgX said:
What will stain the paper? The "stop" after the fixer is a "water stop bath", thus just an added water bath.

Adding fixer to the stop could stain fb paper as it is taken from the dev and put in the stop. But it would need to be a lot of fixer. And it's even less likely with rc paper.

I recently proved to myself (in my darkroom) that putting rc paper into fix directly from developer can stain it.

pentaxuser · Sep 25, 2022

koraks said:
Someone is going to come along and warn you that this will stain your prints. I can also tell you who this will be.

OK but how long will we have to wait?

pentaxuser

Sirius Glass · Sep 25, 2022

I do not see how using stop bath after fixer will help neutralize the fixer, but it will possibly cause staining problems.

koraks · Sep 25, 2022

Sirius Glass said:
do not see how using stop bath after fixer will help neutralize the fixer

Neither do I, and I don't see any hints that @albada thinks so. He just uses the 'stop' bath (just water) as the first rinse after fixing.

Sirius Glass said:
but it will possibly cause staining problems.

I think he'll be OK.

Paul Howell · Sep 25, 2022

Just use hypoclearing bath, in the days when I was freelancing I used RC paper for quick turn around I used Orbit Bath or Permawash, 30 seconds, then a 30 second wash, hot air dryer then off to the paper. Not archrival by any means, my quess lasted a few years.

albada · Sep 25, 2022

Don Heisz said:
Adding fixer to the stop could stain fb paper as it is taken from the dev and put in the stop. But it would need to be a lot of fixer. And it's even less likely with rc paper.

I recently proved to myself (in my darkroom) that putting rc paper into fix directly from developer can stain it.

Don, the staining you saw tells me that at least some dev+fixer combinations can cause stains, as Sirius Glass suspected. Hmm. Maybe I'd better quit making dual-use of the stop bath. I like having 4 wash-baths, but Ilford says 3 are sufficient, which surprises me.

Ilford tells us to refill all baths after a "session". Instead, I've been replacing the stop bath after every one or two 8x10 prints in the rotating fashion that AgX described. I suppose I'll continue this, but with 3 baths.

MattKing · Sep 25, 2022

If you have room for all those trays, why not use an acid stop? If you don't feel the need for an indicator, white vinegar or citric acid.

albada · Sep 25, 2022

MattKing said:
If you have room for all those trays, why not use an acid stop? If you don't feel the need for an indicator, white vinegar or citric acid.

Laziness. Water-stop works fine, so I never bothered to add acid to it.
Plus, I don't want to add acidic carry-over into the alkaline fixer, reducing its pH.

MattKing · Sep 25, 2022

albada said:
Laziness. Water-stop works fine, so I never bothered to add acid to it.
Plus, I don't want to add acidic carry-over into the alkaline fixer, reducing its pH.

Which brings rise to an interesting question about which is a more deleterious addition to the alkaline fixer - acidic carry-over or trace developer?

Don_ih · Sep 25, 2022

albada said:
Don, the staining you saw tells me that at least some dev+fixer combinations can cause stains, as Sirius Glass suspected. Hmm. Maybe I'd better quit making dual-use of the stop bath. I like having 4 wash-baths, but Ilford says 3 are sufficient, which surprises me.

Ilford tells us to refill all baths after a "session". Instead, I've been replacing the stop bath after every one or two 8x10 prints in the rotating fashion that AgX described. I suppose I'll continue this, but with 3 baths.

If you're worried enough to abandon your method, then you should be even more worried about active developer being carried into the fixing bath. But both instances are heavily diluted. Water works well enough as a stop bath for rc paper - because almost no developer soaks into the paper. That water dilutes it as it rinses it off. Same story going from fixer to the stop bath.

Sirius Glass · Sep 25, 2022

Paul Howell said:
Just use hypoclearing bath, in the days when I was freelancing I used RC paper for quick turn around I used Orbit Bath or Permawash, 30 seconds, then a 30 second wash, hot air dryer then off to the paper. Not archrival by any means, my quess lasted a few years.

+1

MattKing said:
If you have room for all those trays, why not use an acid stop? If you don't feel the need for an indicator, white vinegar or citric acid.

+1

Stop Bath with Indicator is just so damned expensive!

Nicholas Lindan · Sep 25, 2022

Sirius Glass said:
Stop Bath with Indicator is just so damned expensive!

That's why use 28% to make up stop bath with just a wee dram of indicator bath. The wee dram is enough to show the pH shift when it is expired; I usually toss it well before expiration.

The formula: 1T 28%, 1t KISB, 1 qt water. (Works out to 1 1/3 drams, oh, well).

Sirius Glass · Sep 25, 2022

Nicholas Lindan said:
That's why use 28% to make up stop bath with just a wee dram of indicator bath. The wee dram is enough to show the pH shift when it is expired; I usually toss it well before expiration.

The formula: 1T 28%, 1t KISB, 1 qt water. (Works out to 1 1/3 drams, oh, well).

In for a drop, in for a dram. Whatever that is.

gone · Sep 25, 2022

Doing that is going to stain your prints.

I have no idea if that is right, but the suspense of waiting for someone to say it was too much.

albada · Sep 25, 2022

Don Heisz said:
If you're worried enough to abandon your method, then you should be even more worried about active developer being carried into the fixing bath. But both instances are heavily diluted. Water works well enough as a stop bath for rc paper - because almost no developer soaks into the paper. That water dilutes it as it rinses it off. Same story going from fixer to the stop bath.

But you saw RC paper get stained when going straight from dev into fix. So it can happen. So mixing small amounts of both in the stop bath might or might not cause staining. We don't know. And if Ilford says 3 baths are good enough, I'll believe them.

Out of curiosity, what kind of dev and fixer were you using? What did the stain look like? If it was sepia, I'll take it!

NB23 · Sep 26, 2022

Developer into fixer creates a battle. And ends as stains. Better add acid.

Water bath always does more harn than good vs acid stop. If one must use water bath, then I’d recommend two water baths. This is ideal.

koraks · Sep 26, 2022

albada said:
I don't want to add acidic carry-over into the alkaline fixer, reducing its pH.

This puzzles me. Why use an alkaline fixer with RC paper? And if so, why would carry-over of acid from an acid stop be your concern, and not the low pH of the stop itself?

albada · Sep 26, 2022

koraks said:
This puzzles me. Why use an alkaline fixer with RC paper? And if so, why would carry-over of acid from an acid stop be your concern, and not the low pH of the stop itself?

I know RC washes quickly, but I prefer alkaline because it washes out even faster, giving me more margin against residual hypo.
Development of prints is taken (nearly) to completion, and I've found that the slower stopping-action of water is harmless.

Don_ih · Sep 26, 2022

albada said:
But you saw RC paper get stained when going straight from dev into fix. So it can happen. So mixing small amounts of both in the stop bath might or might not cause staining. We don't know. And if Ilford says 3 baths are good enough, I'll believe them.

Out of curiosity, what kind of dev and fixer were you using? What did the stain look like? If it was sepia, I'll take it!

I forced it to stain. I roughly tore a piece of rc paper so it had a very uneven edge, I soaked it in developer for about 4 minutes, then I flopped it down in rapid fixer without letting a bit of dev drip off. It gave the normal uneven brownish/purplish stain - radiating inward from the rough torn edge (no staining radiating from the factory edge).
It was a PQ developer.

The best practice is to use a stop bath. But water is good enough for rc. Especially if you use 2, like @NB23 said.

Sirius Glass · Sep 26, 2022

Paul Howell said:
Just use hypoclearing bath, in the days when I was freelancing I used RC paper for quick turn around I used Orbit Bath or Permawash, 30 seconds, then a 30 second wash, hot air dryer then off to the paper. Not archrival by any means, my quess lasted a few years.

HCB does not do much for RC papers so that is not the way to go.

Paul Howell · Sep 26, 2022

Shorten wash time when in a hurry, in normal use when printing RC I skip the hypo clearing and give a 2 minute wash. But as our water may be rationed I might use Perma Wash current recommendation for RC 30 seconds first wash, 30 seconds Perma Wash, 30 seconds final wash.

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