Couplers and sensitizing dyes

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fdelconte10

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Hi everybody,

I am a visual artist and researcher at the Antwerp Academy of Fine Arts, this is the second time I write here. I am working on a project that investigates the role technology and culture have in recording colors within the photographic medium. I am interested in discovering the names of the most common couplers and sensitizing dyes used in today's color negative films.

Could someone help me out? Or suggest a book or article?

Thanks a lot,
All the best
Francesco
 

Rudeofus

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Hi everybody,

I am a visual artist and researcher at the Antwerp Academy of Fine Arts, this is the second time I write here. I am working on a project that investigates the role technology and culture have in recording colors within the photographic medium. I am interested in discovering the names of the most common couplers and sensitizing dyes used in today's color negative films.

These compounds have no simple name, because these are completely crazy molecules. Take these for example:

1700811252890.png


None of these have a nice name, since they were specifically made for one purpose and were never marketed to outside entities. The above screenshot comes from a fairly recent patent (as far as analog photographic products are concerned) and represents the pinnacle of color film chemistry.

Sensitization and coupling, however, have quite a long history, and some of the ancient compounds do have names: Phenol and 1-Naphthol work as dye couplers, Erythrosine has been used to sensitize ancient collodium emulsions (I tried it but had no success).
 

koraks

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@fdelconte10 I'm not sure if your interest extends beyond film also to paper. If it does, feel free indicate so; I may be able to get you into touch with FUJIFILM so you can ask some questions there. This will be strictly the color paper people, though. No film. It seems to me that paper would potentially be relevant as well since dye coupler technology still accounts for a massive volume of the photographic prints produced today (mostly digital). The caveat is that sensitizer dyes are barely present in color paper products.

Another obvious suggestion is to just do a literature research (google scholar is a convenient starting point) on terms like "dye coupler color negative". The main challenge will be to reduce the thousands of relevant publications to a handful to start reading. Try for instance this set of search results to get you started: https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0,5&q=dye+couplers+for+color+negative&btnG=
 

Prest_400

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In this forum, late member and ex Kodak engineer Ron Mowrey "Photo Engineer" had many fabulous discussions that mostly were general with some technical insight. I sometimes recall certain concepts and search for it in the forum. Quite a bit to go through and of course depending on the context.
On an unfortunately deleted thread about Kodachrome, there was quite a bit of discussion about couplers for that product.
 
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Prest_400

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What happened?

It was the "Kodachrome has been discontinued thread" and while there were pages of very interesting content, there were others of plain off topic and derived discussions. AFAIK I never got to see that thread so I assume it deleted, unless someone knows more about it.
 

koraks

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What happened?

Dunno and offtopic here anyway. There is one thread that @Photo Engineer posted in about Kodachrome couplers that has indeed been deleted. But there's a variety of other threads on the same topic where he also posted about couplers, so I'd go through those instead. I don't think that one deleted thread (which wasn't entirely about Kodachrome anyway, or color couplers for that matter) contained anything particularly unique.

Here's a start: https://www.photrio.com/forum/search/6766653/?q=kodachrome+coupler&c[users]=photo+engineer&o=date

I'll also include the relevant stuff @Photo Engineer said about color couplers in the one deleted thread. Here you go:

Throughout the photographic industry, the couplers used by Agfa, Konica and Fuji from first production until about 1980 (E6 and C41 introduction), used a proprietary process and couplers of the Fischer design but with ballast groups by Schneider (of AGFA ANSCO in the US). These were R-CO-CH2-CO-R'SO3H types and dissolved in alkali. They were discovered in the early part of the 20th century in their unballasted forms and were improved by Schneider and his group in the 1940s. Thereafter, regardless of Schneider's contribution or where Fischer worked, they were called Fischer couplers and were first used in multilayer Agfa products and later by the Japanese companies.

Kodak researchers (primarily Hanson and Vittum) found that couplers of the type R-CO-CH2-CO-R' dissolved in a heavy oil like material gave superior imaging, ease of manufacture and allowed for multilayer slide coating. This became the industry standard with E6 and C41 processes. They were termed Kodacolor couplers.

Kodak continued to use unballasted forms of couplers following the original Fischer type in Kodachrome film until the end.

Sorry for my error or inaccuracy.

And marginally relevant, when going into Emil Fischer and Rudolf Fischer, both of note in this context, and apparently often confused (also by Ron; hence the 'sorry'):
The Fischer Speier esterification made possible some of the couplers we use today as did the work he did on hydrazines. In fact, Agfa developed a complete masking system based on phenyl hydrazine derived masking dyes. The other Fischer did the dye coupler work and patented it. The two are separate but linked by chemistry and are often confused. Emil was only very indirectly connected to photography but the other, Rudolf, was directly linked. It is the latter that I am referring to and any error on my part may have confused you. For this I am sorry.

It was the "Kodachrome has been discontinued thread"

No, it was a thread about the history of color film and it wasn't particularly long. The relevant part in this context is reproduced above.
There are several Kodachrome-specific threads in the Search link I gave above including ones about Kodachrome's discontinuation. AFAIK these threads are all accessible by anyone online, but some of them are locked for further replies.
 
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fdelconte10

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First of all thanks a lot everybody.

I feel I should explain a bit more about my research and myself.

I am a 35 years old photographer and visual artist, working with film and analog cameras since my studies at the Academy of Fine Arts in Turin, Italy. I've always worked with B/N materials but since a couple of years color crossed my practice. I've developed an idea whose aims it to underline the importance technology has in depicting colors. I am interested in exploring how different photographic technologies see colors according to their own design and structure. Color in photography is always an approximation, there is no direct link between the colors of the surrounding and the colors registered by the camera. Except for the Lippmann process I believe, and maybe another one that now I can't recall. This idea became an application for a research grant at the Academy of Fine Arts in Antwerp, Belgium. The research is based on the notions of Apparatus and Program, explained by philosopher Vilém Flusser in his essay Toward a Philosophy of Photography. There are two other aspects I intend to speculate on. The first one is the concept of extinct colors. Once an emulsion is not manufactured anymore, its color palette vanishes with it. So, when photographic technologies evolve toward a more performative film (for example, Kodak Vericolor becomes Portra) we observe a technological loss. The second aspect concerns the role that culture plays. I would like to find out why Fujifilm emulsions see colors differently compared to Kodak's. Is it a question of available materials? Or it has to do with something deeper connected to the Countries' history?

I was successful with my proposal and here I am. On the practical level, I am experimenting and testing how different films interpret the same colors. In another words, I am carrying out a comparative studies. However, there are many things to do. I would like to know the materials involved and that's why I opened this thread. It is such a broad field in general. Unfortunately I don't have knowledge of chemistry, my background is mainly art.


@Rudeofus , you mean that these compounds are made for the purpose of being a photographic dye only?
@koraks , my interest goes definitely also toward paper. I'd love to get in touch with FUJI. How could we do?

I will start looking at the links you sent me.

I apologize if my English is not really engaging but here in Europe is quite late and I've worked all day in the darkroom, I am a bit sleepy.

Any other comment and insight is very welcome,
Many thanks again
Francesco
 

Rudeofus

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Color in photography is always an approximation, there is no direct link between the colors of the surrounding and the colors registered by the camera. Except for the Lippmann process I believe, and maybe another one that now I can't recall.

Visible light is some spectral distribution of electromagnetic waves in the wavelength range of 400-700nm. This is what hits our eyes. Our eyes have three types of sensors for these waves with different sensitivity at each wavelength. This provides our brain with three signals from which to form color information. Some spectral distributions will look the same to a few, but different to others, because you map the much larger space of "all possible spectral distribution functions" into the much smaller space of "all number triplets". Not all eyes and brains are created equal, so there will be great differences in perception even if people look at the same scene.

If you use color negative film to record a scene, you have silver halide crystals sensitized to different wavelengths of light. These spectral sensitivities will inevitably differ from what our eyes sense, but for most practical purposes there is a good match. Once the film hits the color developer, dyes are formed, which usually affect one very specific wavelength. This film is then projected onto some RA-4 material, which has spectral sensitivity closely matching the spectrum of the C-41 dyes. The dye spectrum of the RA-4 material is then what your eyes get to see. Note, that the spectral sensitivity of each material can, but doesn't have to be aligned with the spectral density of the dyes created during development.

In addition to this simplistic (haha! ) description there are some effects:
  1. our eyes create adjacency effects, i.e. a blue patch right next to red patch appears different to a blue patch next to a green patch
  2. there are temporal effects: looking at a red patch for a minute, then looking at a blue area creates funny visuals
  3. there are adjacency effects in film, where development in one color layer affects development in other color layers. That's how vivid color palettes are created
  4. Some processing variations will create differences in both density range and in dye hues. Different light sources with their very different spectrum will create different visual appearance of film dye, too.
  5. Finally there will be a big difference whether the pic you look at covers most or just some part of your field of view, that's how our eye/brain system works.

So yes, every film will create a different palette, people (even those with pilot grade 20/20 vision) will perceive the same palette very differently, and even processing defects will provide you with different visual experience. I have no idea, how to wade through this mess except for confirming your suspicion:

Once an emulsion is not manufactured anymore, its color palette vanishes with it. So, when photographic technologies evolve toward a more performative film (for example, Kodak Vericolor becomes Portra) we observe a technological loss.

Yes, there has been howling and grinding of teeth whenever a landmark emulsion disappeared from the shelves.

@Rudeofus , you mean that these compounds are made for the purpose of being a photographic dye only?

Yes, absolutely. Kodak, Fuji and Agfa were all large chemical outfits with a small coating station attached to it. They synthesized compounds of incredible complexity for these two very specific purposes: spectral sensitization of film, and dye couplers for film. Some spectral sensitizing dyes are also useful for special laser devices and are sold commercially for multiple hundred dollars per gram, but even with these I am not sure whether they even have a CAS number, much less a name.

PS: Kodak did quite a bit of research into how people perceive colors and especially color photos. These articles may be a valuable resource for your efforts.
 

Romanko

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Rudeofus

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I have a recurrent discusion with my girlfriend about a jacket of mine. She says it is green (kind of) and I say it is gray (kind of)... 😁

And then a civil war was close to breaking out, because a dress was either blue/black or white/gold. Our eyes are a mess, and the brain behind them often doesn't help.
 

koraks

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I have a recurrent discusion with my girlfriend about a jacket of mine. She says it is green (kind of) and I say it is gray (kind of)... 😁

Sounds like the sweater I'm wearing, which in insist is green, but nooooo...it's really blue, she says! However, that appears to be a different issue from actual color perception, as it seems to be more of a language thing. As far as we've been able to figure out, we do perceive the actual hue similarly.

You might be better off

He might be, but then again, as I understand, his proposal is already approved, so it makes sense to explore the difficult direction of dyes as well. Besides, I'm not sure if the angle of color perception is all that simpler. It's also a Pandora's box - just a different one!
 

DREW WILEY

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Photo dye chemistry is really a complex and specialized field suited to rarified phD'S, especially if we're considering specific color-coupler dyes. There are no doubt aspects not in the public domain. About all that can be reasonably discussed here or on tutorial website are certain general principles. Entire careers are built around coming up with more and newer dyes, and then seeing if there are real world applications for them. Known ones have CAS numbers. But how the ones in use in color films interact and provide their characteristic hue palette signatures can be a very complex question. You might indeed find this course of inquiry fascinating and rewarding, but expect a long walk.

Color pigment technology, applicable to some print processes, is another complex field in its own right, as is the physiology and psychology of color perception.
 

MattKing

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Sounds like the sweater I'm wearing, which in insist is green, but nooooo...it's really blue, she says! However, that appears to be a different issue from actual color perception, as it seems to be more of a language thing. As far as we've been able to figure out, we do perceive the actual hue similarly.

There is nothing like disagreeing about colour with someone who prints optically to RA-4.
Although I do have a friend whose struggles to learn printing colour were hard to understand, until he casually dropped into conversation that he was colour blind!
 

DREW WILEY

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Might have mentioned this before; but I once had an acquaintance who wanted to collect art, starting with what I had to offer. The day before I had accidentally gotten my colorhead dial settings on the enlarger reversed, mistaking cyan for magenta. I pulled the Cibachrome print out of the developing drum, realized the mistake, then squeegeed it off and tossed it in the trashcan besides the sink. This fellow came over to look through prints, but didn't find anything he liked. But he did want to see how they were made. When he walked into the developing room, he happened to spot the print in the trashcan, and said, "That's exactly what I was looking for". Seemed odd, but I retrieved it and a few days later I delivered it to him all framed up, and he paid me. Sure enough, he was seriously color blind.
 
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fdelconte10

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Yes I know it is a very broad area of research, which I intend to explore mainly by experimenting with the available materials. But of course I am very much interested in the theory and the history, and that's why I wish to talk to people from the field.

Thanks again everybody for sharing your knowledge and experience. Again, any other idea and comment is welcome.
 
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