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Couple of quick Pyro PMK questions...

nick mulder

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Hello,

PMK:

>> Is it ok to use wetting/drying agent in an end wash ? (it wont strip the stain?)

Sometimes when I develop at night (HC110, D19, D76 etc..) I leave the negs in a tray of water until the morning when it is warmer and if there is a nice breeze I can keep an eye on them, is it ok to leave stained negs in water for this amount of time ?

...and just to make sure - its ok to switch lights on after the fix right ? i.e. > the post staining can be done in light ?

thanks!
~Nick
 

Tom Hoskinson

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Yes to using a wetting agent in the final wash.

I recommend a No to the overnight soak.

Yes to switching on the room lights after fixing.

POST DEVELOPMENT STAINING is no longer recommended by Gordon Hutchings. It increases overall (general) stain, but does not increase image stain.
 
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nick mulder

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Tom Hoskinson said:
POST DEVELOPMENT STAINING is no longer recommended by Gordon Hutchings. It increases overall (general) stain, but does not increase image stain.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the prompt reply - hmmm, interesting stuff this pyro - so I guess if the neg looks potentially too contrasty after a post fix inspection (still wet) with the loss of some shadow detail you could still choose to do a post stain ... I might dunk a sheet half way into the post bath and see what eventuates
 

gainer

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According to current theory you wouldn't like it any better, but once upon a time current theory was that garlic destroys magnetism of a lodestone, and that tomatos were deadly poison. Now we can have refrigerator magnets and tomato sauce on our pizza.
 

Tom Hoskinson

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Nick, what you will see is the functional equivalent of an increase in the film's fog level. No improvement in shadow detail.
 
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nick mulder

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Tom Hoskinson said:
Nick, what you will see is the functional equivalent of an increase in the film's fog level. No improvement in shadow detail.
Click to expand...

I said if anything I'd get a degradation in shadow detail
 

Tom Hoskinson

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Not a good idea to eat any other parts (than the fruit) of a tomato plant. The stems and the leaves contain an alkaloid called Tomatine that interferes with
cholinergic nerves and can cause some serious gastrointestinal distress.
 
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nick mulder

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righto, so I've stepped upon some sort of bone of contention here ? A common Pyro faux-pas maybe ?

enlightenment appreciated ...

~Nick
 

PHOTOTONE

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nick mulder said:
righto, so I've stepped upon some sort of bone of contention here ? A common Pyro faux-pas maybe ?

enlightenment appreciated ...

~Nick
Click to expand...

The modern thinking is that any post-fixing dipping of film back into the developer, while it might give you some overall (not image) stain increase, it does nothing good for the image. Gordon Hutchings has recanted his earlier instructions. Nobody did this before Hutchings...he worked out the method which he "thought" would be better, wrote the book, and then after extensive evaluation decided he was wrong.
 
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nick mulder

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I'm just following the instructions in the photo formulary pack I got a few weeks back

Can I snigger in the corner with the pyro 'in' folk now or are there more traps for young players ? :rolleyes:
 

Tom Hoskinson

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nick mulder said:
righto, so I've stepped upon some sort of bone of contention here ? A common Pyro faux-pas maybe ?

enlightenment appreciated ...

~Nick
Click to expand...

No worries Nick, I think Pat's just reminding me (and others) that folk wisdom is fallible.

And I'm reminding Pat that there are often some facts underlying the folk wisdom.

Dunno about any factual Garlic connections with magnetism though.

I was working a ferrite core reluctance stability problem earlier today - Garlic wasn't mentioned.
 
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nick mulder

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heh, reminds me of another thread that got so far as to how to measure focal lengths using the unit standard of 'women' - it started out in tortellini ...

I am a user of a cinematography website and there are plenty of rules that get spurted out there by people who have read it on the net somewhere "so therefore its true" - I get tired of trying to make sense of it all and fly off on abstract tangents, that do have a core of truth somewhere but are otherwise incomprehensible to me and maybe one other user ... I smelled a hint of that here, and well, yeh no further comment required

cheers for the info though - the original post was answered taco pronto

nick
 

gainer

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Well, the idea that an overall pyro stain will result from the alkaline afterbath seems to have prompted thr OP to observe that it might be the thing to do if the contrast appeared to be too high. In that respect, it would be like having a permanent yellow filter that would reduce the contrast when printing on VC paper. Contrary to the opinion of some, the proportional part of the yellow stain slightly increases VC contrast. So maybe it would not be such a bad thing to use the afterbath in such cases. You would still have the proportional part for blue and UV printing, albeit with longer print times.

Sometimes the trouble with conventional wisdom is that it is too rigid to see all the possibilities, and instills such fear of violation that few are bold enough to test it. Lodestones were valued possessions. Who would risk eating garlic near one? The man who stood on his front porch and ate tomatos in public was expected to die a violent death forthwith. If he had, it would have been the result of indigestion, not poison. Anyway, we can use the subject to make fun if not good photos.
 
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nick mulder

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I should mention I'm using pyro negs solely for Pt/Pd (UV) printing ...
 

JBrunner

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nick mulder said:
I'm just following the instructions in the photo formulary pack I got a few weeks back

Can I snigger in the corner with the pyro 'in' folk now or are there more traps for young players ? :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

You are of course using an alkali fixer... tortellini, anyone?
 

Tom Hoskinson

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Helmsmen were not allowed to eat either onions or garlic, as it was believed that the resulting breath odor would negatively affect the navigational lodestone.

Diamonds were also believed to have a negative influence on lodestones.

Regarding the use of a PMK afterbath, see this old APUG thread: (there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Also see: http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=23003
 
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nick mulder

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JBrunner said:
You are of course using an alkali fixer... tortellini, anyone?
Click to expand...

yip ok I'll have some

Its fixed for as long as an average song on my ipod takes in Ilford Rapid Fix (sans hardener)
 

JBrunner

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It is said by garlic eating helmsmen that acid adversly affects stain, and that a water stop and alkali fixer such as TF-4 is the thing to do.

(That's what they say in the sniggering corner near the onion pot.)
 

Tom Hoskinson

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nick mulder said:
yip ok I'll have some

Its fixed for as long as an average song on my ipod takes in Ilford Rapid Fix (sans hardener)
Click to expand...

http://www.ilford.com/html/us_english/sds/sds.asp

http://www.freestylephoto.biz/pdf/msds/ilford/b&w/UNIVERSAL_RAP_FIX_.PDF

Based on the Ilford MSDS information, it appears that Ilford HYPAM and Ilford Universal Rapid Fixer are the same fixer.

Ilford Universal Rapid Fixer contains Ammonium Thiosulfate, Sodium Sulfite, Sodium Acetate, Boric Acid and Acetic Acid. The pH of the Ilford Rapid Fixer concentrate is listed as 5.1 (thus acidic)

Recall: Acid pH is less than 6.5
Neutral pH is 6.5 to 7.5
Basic pH is greater than 7.5

If you wish to increase the pH (i.e. make the fixer alkaline), just mix in Borax or Sodium Metaborate until the pH reaches the desired level (i.e. approx. neutral pH when the fixer stops fizzing - then add a few more grams of alkali). Otherwise, you would need a pH meter or pH indicator paper to accomplish this.
 
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Tom Hoskinson

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JBrunner said:
It is said by garlic eating helmsmen that acid adversly affects stain, and that a water stop and alkali fixer such as TF-4 is the thing to do.

(That's what they say in the sniggering corner near the onion pot.)
Click to expand...
(No Vampires in the sniggering corner - I bet.)
 
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nick mulder

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The use of Ilford Rapid fix was recommended here:

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

anyhoo, a stain there be !
 

PHOTOTONE

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I have great success developing with Wd2d pyro developer and fixing in Kodak Rapid Fix, just omitting the hardener (which comes in a separate bottle) from the fix mix.
 

JBrunner

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What grade of Borax? (dUcks and covers)
 

gainer

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Neither borax nor metaborate cause fizzing. They do not contain the carbonate ion.
 
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