Couple of issues with coating - pt and cyanotype

[Rock Poper]

Hiya,

I have just started hand coating papers and have bought two kits - the bostick-sullivan pt/pd kit and the formulary (new) cyanotype kit ...

Along with the kits I bought a 8x10 puddle pusher from the formulary which turns out a little different than I expected, its the difference that is causing the first problem...

I expected something like a glass rod, that would be bent at the corners to make handles, but what I received was a glass tube with a piece of flat glass glues to it to make the handle..

the tube section is around 8" long and is not bent at the ends, it is instead ground down to make a safe edge that you will not cut yourself with, the problem is that these ground edges are abrasive and will wear the moist paper away with each stroke of the rod at the edges causing visible dark marks in the developed print (as the paper in these areas is being worn and is soaking up more sensitiser) - I am not pushing too hard.

as the rod is only 8" if I am stuck with a dry spot in coating that will refuse to soak with repeated sweeps I am forced to make a puddle next to the spot and sweep in the 10" direction in an attempt to coat the stubborn spot (easier to explain in demonstration than words) - when I do this I end up with these ugly scratches in the middle of the print, not just in the boundary areas...

I could use more sensitiser and directly apply it to that area, but that really negates why I bought it in the first place>> more economy in the coating ...

Am i using it incorrectly ? any ideas on how to deal with stubborn dry spots ? is the formulary puddle pusher a bad design ? << a rod with smooth bent ends and a 9" or 10" would be better in my mind. Also being a tube, the formulary design is very fragile.

cheers for any thoughts on that one...

next issue I have seen mention of but haven't found it again recently:
pt/pd blotches/grain issues ...

I am using the bostick kit with arches hot press 150gsm (unable to get platine here) and am getting little random undeveloped blotches, is this something to do with sol.2 ? I think i recall some mention of sol.2 being dropped by some users altogher, or at least being used in a different way because of this ... would appreciate any links or suggestions

maybe one day I'll be able to help someone here, uptil now this site has been a great source of info! looking forward to getting something worthy of submission (;

cheers!
nick

 

[colrehogan]

Hiya,

I have just started hand coating papers and have bought two kits - the bostick-sullivan pt/pd kit and the formulary (new) cyanotype kit ...

Along with the kits I bought a 8x10 puddle pusher from the formulary which turns out a little different than I expected, its the difference that is causing the first problem...

I expected something like a glass rod, that would be bent at the corners to make handles, but what I received was a glass tube with a piece of flat glass glues to it to make the handle..

the tube section is around 8" long and is not bent at the ends, it is instead ground down to make a safe edge that you will not cut yourself with, the problem is that these ground edges are abrasive and will wear the moist paper away with each stroke of the rod at the edges causing visible dark marks in the developed print (as the paper in these areas is being worn and is soaking up more sensitiser) - I am not pushing too hard.

as the rod is only 8" if I am stuck with a dry spot in coating that will refuse to soak with repeated sweeps I am forced to make a puddle next to the spot and sweep in the 10" direction in an attempt to coat the stubborn spot (easier to explain in demonstration than words) - when I do this I end up with these ugly scratches in the middle of the print, not just in the boundary areas...

I could use more sensitiser and directly apply it to that area, but that really negates why I bought it in the first place>> more economy in the coating ...

Am i using it incorrectly ? any ideas on how to deal with stubborn dry spots ? is the formulary puddle pusher a bad design ? << a rod with smooth bent ends and a 9" or 10" would be better in my mind. Also being a tube, the formulary design is very fragile.

cheers for any thoughts on that one...

next issue I have seen mention of but haven't found it again recently:
pt/pd blotches/grain issues ...

I am using the bostick kit with arches hot press 150gsm (unable to get platine here) and am getting little random undeveloped blotches, is this something to do with sol.2 ? I think i recall some mention of sol.2 being dropped by some users altogher, or at least being used in a different way because of this ... would appreciate any links or suggestions

maybe one day I'll be able to help someone here, uptil now this site has been a great source of info! looking forward to getting something worthy of submission (;

cheers!
nick

The puddle pushers that I have are also like yours although I have never had any of the problems you mentioned. Perhaps if you sanded the ends of the rod, this problem would go away.

I am not familiar with your paper. Are you having to pretreat it in some fashion besides maybe humidifying it? What kind of surface are you doing your coating on? You shouldn't need to coat in the 10" direction.

I've never used the #2 solution you speak of, so I can't help you there.

 

[Rock Poper]

the rod ends are sanded, I will try a much finer grain paper tho and see if I can get them smoother -

No pre-treatment and I haven't tried humidifying it yet, but was going to try that one day soon - maybe that will allow the liquid to 'suck' around a bit better ? like rain drops on glass but on a sub-micron kinda level

surface ? I'm doing it in my room as its easiest to keep dark, the only clear space is my bed (; but I have put a piece of MDF on it for a level surface I am coating directly on that... its totally planar but maybe not perfectly horizontal

the #2 sol is ferric oxalate %27 with potassium chlorate contrast agent also

thanks for the suggestions

 

[matt miller]

I'm just a beginner myself and use a richeson brush for coating. I haven't tried a glass rod, but I can't imagine another method being easier or saving any solution over the richeson brush. It is a dream to use. At this point I doubt I'll ever use a rod.

 

[Rock Poper]

I've got one of those cheap hake brushes the results are really inconsistant with cyanotype, so I never tried it with pt/pd - dont the richardson brushes have metal furrels (ferrul's ?) that are meant to contaminate the print ? if you say they werk fine I might invest in one - I'm going to try a light bit of steam or moisture on the paper a few min's beforehand to see if that helps ...

anyone used a perfume type mist application method ? I imagine a lot of chems may well end up in your lungs but maybe ?

 

[Mateo]

I use allot of the Arches Aquarelle for watercolor painting and so I've tried it with Pt/Pd, Van Dyke, Kallitype, Cyanotype, Uranium et al. It just don't work! You're going to have to get a paper that does work such as Platine, Cot320, or Cranes Platinotype. There are others that work, but why start out searching for papers?

And the Richeson 9010 brushes work fine; I think the metal ferrule bit is a myth.

 

[Rock Poper]

to get platine here in NZ I have to order 25 sheets at $15 US per sheet - I'll try to find the other two ...

 

[N O Mennescio]

You can easily do your own rod. Find someone in town who does neon signs, the have glass tubes in all sizes. Explain what you want and ask them to do some different sizes and models for you. Afterall, bending glass is what they do all day. To afix a handle to the rod you use glass glue that hardens in UV light, wich you allready have since you do pt/pd.

 

[Peter Schrager]

Rods etc...

Just learned to use a rod. It will only work with certain papers. A good Hake brush works extremely well. The trick with a brush with the metal ferule is not to dip it in the solution. You might want to try some of the Crane papers. B+S is rebranding some of them. You can order directly online. They have a flourescent white,Ivory and warm. I tried the rod with the platinotype paper and it didn't take. Don't waste time and money with inferior tools/products. Buy it once and have it. My Hake brushes go on and on. Cost-about $27 each from Central Art
Supply in NYC. The Richeson is about $40.
Good luck, Peter

 

[photomc]

Mateo's comment about good paper is sound advice...he has helped me a lot. The Richeson brush can be found for around $25, look Dead Link Removed and worth every penny. I realize that it will be more for you in NZ, but the cost should be worth it. As to paper, you could try Crane's web site again the cost is not that high...price per sheet is $1.50, but the shipping is what is eating up your savings I think. Platinotype is actually Cranes Cover Stock, so you might have a local art supply look and see if they have it...save you the shipping charges.

One thing, you might want to practice using the glass rod and water on a sheet of plain paper. It can takes some time to get used to it, but it is a good way to coat paper. Check the B&S site, I think they have an article of two about hand coating using a glass rod. In a past life, worked in a laboratory and did thin layer chromatography, which it turns out was excellent practice for coating paper. If you are getting indentations or scratches you are probably pressing to hard, even when you think you aren't...just let the rod float across the paper. The same thing will cause the dry patches you described, the liquid will get pulled up to the edge of the glass rod and stay there...if you are getting dry patches, you are going to fast, slow down a little and see if that helps. One thing are you pushing the liquid or pulling it? I found that pulling worked for me, so don't be hard on yourself or the puddle pusher...it does take time to get the hang of it.

If you get frustrated, take a break, stop by here...but keep at it. In the end it will be worth all the frustration....

So have fun, and share some work with us when you get a chance.

 

[Ole]

I use the cheapest brushes I could find for cyanotype. 5 for NOK 10.- or about $1.30. Metal ferrules are not a problem unless you are very sloppy: The solution shouldn't be allowed to soak that far up, and any solution that has been that far up shouldn't get on the paper. Both of these are very easy to avoid.

Some papers work better than others, and sometimes different processes are better on different papers. I do my cyanotypes on the back side of Canson sketch paper...

 

[sanking]

I use allot of the Arches Aquarelle for watercolor painting and so I've tried it with Pt/Pd, Van Dyke, Kallitype, Cyanotype, Uranium et al. It just don't work! You're going to have to get a paper that does work such as Platine, Cot320, or Cranes Platinotype. There are others that work, but why start out searching for papers?

And the Richeson 9010 brushes work fine; I think the metal ferrule bit is a myth.

I strongly recommend the Richeson 9010 brush over coating rods. The coating rod works ok if you apply only one coat, but after the first coat goes on the paper usually develops wrinkles that make it impossible to apply a second coat.

With the Richesion you can smooth out a second coat even if the paper is not perfectly smooth and flat, and this is a big advantage in my book since the second coat can substantially increase Dmax with many papers.

Good quality hake brushes can also be used, but they absorb a lot of the expensive sensitizer. The Richeson, on the other hand, works more by just pushing the sensitizer around on the paper and it absorbs very little of the sensitizer.

I have coated with foam brushes, hake brushes, glass coating/rods and the Richeson brush. For my money coating with the Richeson is far superior to other methods.

Sandy

 

[scootermm]

everyones given wonderful replies as to what might be the cause of your coating whoas... the onyl thing I can add is when I first started coating with a rod doing cyanotypes one of the biggest problems I had sounded very similiar to what you are describing... I tried anything and everything but couldnt seem to figure out why the glass rod was causing these problems. I eventually figured out that the board I was coating on was ever so slightly warped so when I coated it wasnt creating even pressure all across the glass rod as it moved down the paper. I got a 10x14 sheet of thick glass and not coat all of my papers from 4x5 up to 7x17 negative sizes on a sheet of glass and have even coatings with glass rods and now the richeson brush.

PS I reccomend the richeson brush. I love the little amount of formula needed and even like the brush marks of the fine hairs on the richeson brush.

 

[Rock Poper]

update:

have tried some COT320 which works fantastically for coating, it sucks up the liquid without the dry patches and therefore I have left no rubbing marks from over pushing - leaving the super smooth and evenly coated surface I was after

cheers for the advice *grin*

(thanks also Diane for the package!)

I also tried a water color brush today with some cyanotype - not the richeson brand nor was it a flat type as well, just a normal 'more costly' type one I had from architecture school days (than say a Hake brush) it worked nicely - although I think I would need a larger one for larger coatings, as I was only doing 6x9 areas on 4x5 paper (cut up 8x10) it worked fine...

It was just big enough to get the liquid around the print area so it was all initially 'wet' around the same time ...

ace ace ace - anyway, the sun has gone now - time to fix the enlarger (;

 

[Rock Poper]

see the cyanotypes in the critique gallery by user 'nick mulder' (thats me also, longish story) - both done with the new papers, testing single and double coatings - I think they came out quite well for medium format negs (;

Also another update, I got in touch with a neon sign maker and got a new pusher made with the ends bent upwards, much smoother - and he made it in 2 minutes free of charge - I wish I had known before I spent $20 for one over the net .

cheers everyone,
nick