Couple of Beseler 23c questions

mrdarklight · Sep 25, 2009

Hi folks,

I have a Beseler 23c Series 2 that I got off the eBay. I had to replace the gears but otherwise it's solid. I do have two questions so far:

1) Does putting a contrast filter in the drawer have any effect when making contact sheets?

2) I thought there were supposed to be numbers up the side of the support posts, so you could keep track of how high it was, etc. Mine doesn't have them.

Thanks.

Nick Zentena · Sep 25, 2009

If you're using VC paper then yes.

You could tape/glue a measuring tape.

Whiteymorange · Sep 25, 2009

The contact sheets we do on our Beselers are always done with no filter- They come out around grade 2. If the object is simply to see what's on the roll, what's the point of adding filtration?

We have 10 23c's. None of them have numbers on the side.

bdial · Sep 25, 2009

One reason is that the exposure will be consistant with exposures using filters when you enlarge.

For height, put a carrier (with or without a neg) in the enlarger an raise the head tilll it covers an 8x10 in focus. Take a piece of masking tape and mark the position of the head on the column. Mark the tape with the film format. Do this for each format you use.

When you do contact sheets set the head to the position marked by the tape. Put that film format's carrier in the head and focus on the edge of the carrier. Put in the filter you've decided to standardize on for contact sheets. Set the exposure time for the minimum time to max black for the paper and film you're using. Expose your contact sheet.

If everything is too dark, you now know that you underexposed that roll. If everything is too light, you've overexposed. Hopefully most will look pretty much right. Either way, you now have all the information you need as a starting point for printing your favorite shots.

*some people like to do proof sheets with a lower than normal filter, which makes the proofs look flat, but it helps for evaluating exposure for the highlights and what grade you'd like to end up on. Others prefer proofs with normal contrast. Pick what works for you.

ann · Sep 25, 2009

a beseler 45 has numbers on the strut, a 23 c has an indicator on the side of the condensor support that indicates which format is being used so you can move the head.

DaveOttawa · Sep 25, 2009

bdial said:
...*some people like to do proof sheets with a lower than normal filter, which makes the proofs look flat, but it helps for evaluating exposure for the highlights and what grade you'd like to end up on. Others prefer proofs with normal contrast. Pick what works for you.

Agreed, when teaching, especially intro clases, this is my practice (use a filter<2) since the likelihood is there will be a range of under & over exposed negs on many students' films and we want to see as much detail as possible in a single contact seet exposure. In addition it is more practice for them in using contrast filters while printing.

reellis67 · Sep 25, 2009

My 23C (baby blue model) has a graduated scale on one side that does show head height in relation to the baseboard. At one time you could buy replacements, but it would be far easier (and cheaper!) to simply attach a paper ruler to the enlarger support. The condenser indicator for format is something else entirely...

- Randy

fotch · Sep 25, 2009

I have a Black 23C XL, purchased new about 1977, and is has a scale on the column similar to the 45's.

With the color head that I added later, this baby cost over a grand 1970 dollars. Amazing deals now a days!

mrdarklight · Sep 25, 2009

Actually I do have one more question: I have the Ilford contrast filters for this enlarger. What should I do to get even more contrast? As in, the Ilfords go to 5, how do I go to 10?

DaveOttawa · Sep 25, 2009

mrdarklight said:
Actually I do have one more question: I have the Ilford contrast filters for this enlarger. What should I do to get even more contrast? As in, the Ilfords go to 5, how do I go to 10?

Why stop at 10, why not go to 11
Seriously it doesn't work that way, the contrast is limited by the nature of the emulsion mixture not the filters.
Suggest you review this material to understand how the Ilford variable contrast emulsion works and is used:
http://www.ilfordphoto.com/Webfiles/2006130201152306.pdf
If, for some reason you feel you need a higher contrast than 5 then I suggest you look at how you are exposing and processing your negatives.

bdial · Sep 25, 2009

5 is not very much grey, and would be pretty harsh for most normal contrast negs. If you want just black and white, you could you could use a lith developer at it's normal strength.

reellis67 · Sep 25, 2009

DaveOttawa said:
Why stop at 10, why not go to 11

My amp goes to 11, but I also have problems with my drummer spontaneously combusting, so it's a trade off...

I fully agree with Dave. If you feel you need still more with a #5 (which should yield soot and chalk prints) then you need to adjust your exposure/development to produce more contrast...

- Randy

Dennis S · Sep 25, 2009

My Beseler 23 C II Has the makings on the main support columns but they serve no useful purpose (to me anyways) but the markings on the head, well you know what it says.

Anon Ymous · Sep 26, 2009

reellis67 said:
My amp goes to 11, but I also have problems with my drummer spontaneously combusting, so it's a trade off...

Spinal Tap eh?

reellis67 said:
I fully agree with Dave. If you feel you need still more with a #5 (which should yield soot and chalk prints) then you need to adjust your exposure/development to produce more contrast...

- Randy

Proper exposure/development is the obvious choice, but wouldn't stronger paper developer give a bit more contrast?

EDIT: Or maybe print at #5, contact print that one on another piece of paper and contact print once more to get another positive?

mrdarklight · Sep 26, 2009

reellis67 said:
My amp goes to 11, but I also have problems with my drummer spontaneously combusting, so it's a trade off...

I fully agree with Dave. If you feel you need still more with a #5 (which should yield soot and chalk prints) then you need to adjust your exposure/development to produce more contrast...

- Randy

He was killed in a bizarre gardening accident.

The police said best to leave it unsolved.

ic-racer · Sep 26, 2009

Whiteymorange said:
If the object is simply to see what's on the roll, what's the point of adding filtration?

In that case, what is the point of making a contact sheet? Just look at the negative

DaveOttawa · Sep 26, 2009

Anon Ymous said:
Proper exposure/development is the obvious choice, but wouldn't stronger paper developer give a bit more contrast?
QUOTE]

I doubt if changing paper dev concentration would have much effect, ceratinly the Ilford data sheet doesn't suggest that it would. In any case it is likely to be very small, less than 1/2 grade. Contrast is the range between Dmax (assuming you expose and process to produce that) and paper base white (Dmin), obviously you can't process the paper any whiter so you need to increase Dmax, you can do that a small amount by Se toning.

resummerfield · Sep 26, 2009

mrdarklight said:
.......I thought there were supposed to be numbers up the side of the support posts, so you could keep track of how high it was, etc. Mine doesn't have them.....

I bought my 23C new in the 70's, and it did NOT have the scale on the column. The scale was an option at that time, and could be purchased separately.

Anon Ymous · Sep 26, 2009

DaveOttawa said:
I doubt if changing paper dev concentration would have much effect, ceratinly the Ilford data sheet doesn't suggest that it would. In any case it is likely to be very small, less than 1/2 grade.

For a given development time, I wouldn't be surprised if it actually did. Obviously, no matter what dilution/time you use, you can't expect 5 more contrast grades from these.

DaveOttawa said:
Contrast is the range between Dmax (assuming you expose and process to produce that) and paper base white (Dmin), obviously you can't process the paper any whiter so you need to increase Dmax, you can do that a small amount by Se toning.

That's half the truth. Let's assume that you have made a print with a #2 filter, and the print has a full tonal range, from absolute white to absolute black (Dmax). Now, switch to #3 and expose for the same time. There will be more whites and more blacks, because you have altered the characteristic curve of the paper. In any case, some detail (if there was) will be lost. So, contrast is not the difference between Dmax - Dmin, but also the gradation between them, the steepness of the curve. You need to take both the Y (density) and the X (exposure) axis into account.

ic-racer · Sep 27, 2009

D-max is proportional to the slope of the HD curve (G or gamma or 'contrast') in negative material but since prints are usually processed to completion, that relationship does not usually apply to printing paper (as Anon Ymous pointed out).

DaveOttawa · Sep 27, 2009

Anon Ymous said:
So, contrast is not the difference between Dmax - Dmin, but also the gradation between them, the steepness of the curve. You need to take both the Y (density) and the X (exposure) axis into account.

Paper contrast can, I suppose be defined in more than one way, the definition of contrast I was using (Dmin-Dmax range) is based on the Kodak definition:
"Contrast
The range of difference in the light to dark areas of a
negative, print, or slide (also called density); the brightness
range of a subject or the scene lighting."
http://www.kodak.com/global/en/consumer/products/techInfo/aa9/aa9.pdf
One of the characteristics of a low contrast print is in fact that there are probably no true (Dmax) blacks.
But I would agree that paper contrast cannot be usefully described without reference to gamma - given enough exposure and a suitable negative a given paper will have the same Dmax & Dmin at any contrast grade but different gammas will given looking prints. MY point originally was that once you were at grade 5 the only way forward was to increase Dmax slightly with Se toning.

Couple of Beseler 23c questions

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