Could traditional photography products go the way of the micro-brewery?

AgX · Jun 13, 2007

Antonov,

I assume it is not the machinery or the land what could be the future issue, it is the people.

Most (or all?) companies engaged in silver halide material for pictorial use have made people redundant the last years or are still doing so. The few amongst them who really know how to design a film and bring it into large scale production are, once they have found another qualified job, most probably lost for a new venture in film. And all those specialists are not getting younger.

Antonov · Jun 13, 2007

AgX said:
Antonov,

I assume it is not the machinery or the land what could be the future issue, it is the people.

Most (or all?) companies engaged in silver halide material for pictorial use have made people redundant the last years or are still doing so. The few amongst them who really know how to design a film and bring it into large scale production are, once they have found another qualified job, most probably lost for a new venture in film. And all those specialists are not getting younger.

Yes I understand that, but I think that we must not look at things and such pesimistic way.I really don't know had ever any craft died.I mean, you can find blacksmiths even today, although that craft has died really long time ago.I hope you understand what I'm aiming for.

Daniel_OB · Jun 13, 2007

When Nikon stopped production of manual lenses, it came to me that my Nikon F6 will never more see nice manual focus and engraved lens. However now is available even and much better. Zeiss ZF lenses.
Engineers in Zeiss are not stupid but we make them. The ZF lenses are made for film not for digit cameras, with possibility to use and for digit camera. If film (even 35 mm) is going into “small” production what for are that lenses. To make 5 Planar lenses a year?
Look as second example at ilford, adox, efke,…. What is wrong?
I think guys, sorry, but you do not have what to do so investigate a problem. If you cannot get a film just behind the corner of your house you call 911.

Painters are even in bigger problem but they are around and will always be.
When you once fully understand what photography is all about, and also what digital imaging is also all about, you will understand also and
NO WAY THAT PHOTOGRAPHY DIE.
You all are victims of digital equipment manufactures advertising and their running after profit. Sorry again.

www.Leica-R.com

Antonov · Jun 13, 2007

Daniel_OB said:
When Nikon stopped production of manual lenses, it came to me that my Nikon F6 will never more see nice manual focus and engraved lens. However now is available even and much better. Zeiss ZF lenses.
Engineers in Zeiss are not stupid but we make them. The ZF lenses are made for film not for digit cameras, with possibility to use and for digit camera. If film (even 35 mm) is going into small production what for are that lenses. To make 5 Planar lenses a year?
Look as second example at ilford, adox, efke,. What is wrong?
I think guys, sorry, but you do not have what to do so investigate a problem. If you cannot get a film just behind the corner of your house you call 911.

Painters are even in bigger problem but they are around and will always be.
When you once fully understand what photography is all about, and also what digital imaging is also all about, you will understand also and
NO WAY THAT PHOTOGRAPHY DIE.
You all are victims of digital equipment manufactures advertising and their running after profit. Sorry again.

www.Leica-R.com

That is a very good point of view Daniel!I agree with you.

Drew B. · Jun 13, 2007

Well I'm not about to read 18 pages of replys...but going with the thought that no one else has mentioned this...but using kodak as an example, how about (like Harley Davidson) the employees of Kodak buying out the busniess...and for up front cash, give the members of apug the opportunity to buy in on some stock?

I'm not a business person and have little knowledge of stocks...but sounds interesting doesn't it? Each (2000 members) chip in $500 toward stock options which should raise around 1 mil..... Sorry, just dreaming.

aldevo · Jun 13, 2007

Daniel_OB said:
When Nikon stopped production of manual lenses, it came to me that my Nikon F6 will never more see nice manual focus and engraved lens. However now is available even and much better. Zeiss ZF lenses.
Engineers in Zeiss are not stupid but we make them. The ZF lenses are made for film not for digit cameras, with possibility to use and for digit camera. If film (even 35 mm) is going into “small” production what for are that lenses. To make 5 Planar lenses a year?
Look as second example at ilford, adox, efke,…. What is wrong?
I think guys, sorry, but you do not have what to do so investigate a problem. If you cannot get a film just behind the corner of your house you call 911.

Painters are even in bigger problem but they are around and will always be.
When you once fully understand what photography is all about, and also what digital imaging is also all about, you will understand also and
NO WAY THAT PHOTOGRAPHY DIE.
You all are victims of digital equipment manufactures advertising and their running after profit. Sorry again.

www.Leica-R.com

I wish I could agree with you, but as Photo Engineer has stated is numerous posts - the intellectual and material capital required to sustain silver-based photographic film and paper as high-quality, mass-market products are formidable. IF the present production infrastructure would vanish - that would be pretty much be the end apart from hand-coating glass plates and paper.

Happily, it seems there are some efforts underway to ensure that doesn't happen. We will just have to wait and see to find out if they work. It's not a sure thing but I am more optimistic than I was a year ago.

The needs of painters can be met by technology that has, more or less, existed since the Bronze Age and peaked in the 17th century!

Daniel_OB · Jun 14, 2007

Aldevo
EFKE in Croatria never in their history had mass production as it is understand in US.
What is mass production and how the whole system work, to make long short, depend of political system and culture.
All we see is viewed under US money driven culture. If photography is at all made in US it will die 100%, and Kodak is a nice example. Not really easy to understand if I say that EFKE is a master to Kodak. So in qustion is also and the spot where we look at.
As the second example is Forte: when they got under US system they gone (way of thinking has been changed).

www.Leica-R.com

Antonov · Jun 14, 2007

Daniel_OB said:
Aldevo
EFKE in Croatria never in their history had mass production as it is understand in US.
What is mass production and how the whole system work, to make long short, depend of political system and culture.

You're rigth about this!

All we see is viewed under US money driven culture. If photography is at all made in US it will die 100%, and Kodak is a nice example. Not really easy to understand if I say that EFKE is a master to Kodak. So in qustion is also and the spot where we look at.
As the second example is Forte: when they got under US system they gone (way of thinking has been changed).

Absolutely correct!This is what I'm talking about, you can't judge through eyes of cruel capitalists, and money driven culture.

Terence · Jun 14, 2007

Drew B. said:
Well I'm not about to read 18 pages of replys...but going with the thought that no one else has mentioned this...but using kodak as an example, how about (like Harley Davidson) the employees of Kodak buying out the busniess...and for up front cash, give the members of apug the opportunity to buy in on some stock?

I'm not a business person and have little knowledge of stocks...but sounds interesting doesn't it? Each (2000 members) chip in $500 toward stock options which should raise around 1 mil..... Sorry, just dreaming.

Part of the problem is that Kodak is looking at the cost of a huge environmental cleanup. Very few people are going to get a bank to lend them money to take on such a huge liability.

Also, it's not like Kodak is going out of business (yet), so theywill milk assets for all they are worth. I believe Harley was either in, or on the verge of, bankruptcy when the employess bought it out. That's a very different matter where creditors will willingly accept something that might increase the chances of their loans being repaid, etc.

jim appleyard · Jun 14, 2007

I only know that I'm using as much film and photo paper as I can and drinking as much beer as I can!

AgX · Jun 14, 2007

Antonov said:
Agfa didn't find investor, because no one wanted to bother with that.

Sorry, but you are mixing up companies.

AgX · Jun 14, 2007

Antonov said:
Yes I understand that, but I think that we must not look at things and such pesimistic way.I really don't know had ever any craft died.I mean, you can find blacksmiths even today, although that craft has died really long time ago.I hope you understand what I'm aiming for.

Yes I understand what you are aiming for, but those blacksmith example does not really fit as those outnumbered the chemical/photography engineers by far. And even traded crafts show that even a period of decrease though without a total standstill will result in loss of important skills by those who are trying to keep those crafts alive.

Antonov · Jun 14, 2007

AgX said:
Sorry, but you are mixing up companies.

I don't understand what do you mean by this?

AgX · Jun 14, 2007

Well, Agfa didn't look for an investor as they just short before had got rid of their German plants to Agfaphoto and it was them, lead by their insolvency trustee, trying in vain to bring coating alive again.

Could traditional photography products go the way of the micro-brewery?

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