Could Ilford make Polaroid?

Martin Reed · Feb 17, 2008

Well, if Fuji don't expand their range slightly as a consequence of Polaroid pulling out we can be pretty sure the market for instant is too dead to be worth picking over. Any talk of Ilford investing heavily in this has to be pie in the sky - Fuji are already there with established products.

Maybe the best thing, rather than going through lots of hand wringing would be to shoot some good stuff on Polaroid this year while there's still fresh stock, and make something of an event of it. Are any galleries out there going to promote any shows to give Polaroid a send-off?

Incidentally, there's an excellent biography of Edwin Land himself which is essential reading, not only for the technical stuff, but his philosophy on life, science & business. I'll try to copy the Amazon address in;

http://www.amazon.com/Insisting-Impossible-Life-Edwin-Land/dp/0738201901

Simon R Galley · Feb 18, 2008

Dear All,

Firstly I have been out on holiday for a week so I apologise for not 'joining in' earlier. We have had several contacts regarding POLAROID instant materials hence the reply by our marketing department. Indeed we have made some calls, but if you read Photo Engineers comments you see the $ 64,000 question, coating ( probably not an issue ) finishing...big issue, you then have a hundred and one other issues, patents, royalties, distribution, competition, investment....never say never but give me a couple of weeks and I will come back to you all.

Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited.

PHOTOTONE · Feb 18, 2008

For those of us (including myself) who still have clients that prefer we shoot film for them, a Polaroid-like instant print proofing medium is an integral part of the image creation process. If one is going to promote film capture, be it color or black and white, the capability to show a client a "proof" of what you are capturing is ESSENTIAL to the task. In addition, being able to zero-in on exposure via a test image greatly enhances the chance of a spot-on exposure when shooting film materials with narrow exposure ranges, such as transparencies. I don't care if my proofing medium is b/w or color, but I do NEED some way to generate an instant proof for evaluation when I shoot for clients in medium-format and 4x5. It is true that Fuji does make some materials suitable to this, but it looks like for some sizes and types of material, Polaroid was the only choice.

Also, I think it is important to remember, that Polaroids instant film business is STILL profitable, however the value of the real estate is MORE profitable sold to be developed into retail space.

Photo Engineer · Feb 18, 2008

Kodak's pro studio has an RZ67 with a digital back. They proof the picture on digital while you wait and then change to the film back and shoot on Portra. BTDT.

PE

PHOTOTONE · Feb 18, 2008

Photo Engineer said:
Kodak's pro studio has an RZ67 with a digital back. They proof the picture on digital while you wait and then change to the film back and shoot on Portra. BTDT.

PE

Yes, and that scenario works for Portraits, but this is not a viable solution when shooting product photography on film, as the digital backs do not cover the whole film frame, and with product and multiple-product still life-type shots one composes to fit the whole frame for maximum quality.

Now, if digital is your desired final result, then the sensor size doesn't matter so much.

JohnArs · Feb 18, 2008

You still can use the instant Fuji Films which anyway are better!
With one exeption they do not have the 55 for negs and prints! But maybe Fuji is listening here to and has also an interest to get more of there instant film sales!

My 2 cents, Armin

Photo Engineer · Feb 18, 2008

PHOTOTONE said:
Yes, and that scenario works for Portraits, but this is not a viable solution when shooting product photography on film, as the digital backs do not cover the whole film frame, and with product and multiple-product still life-type shots one composes to fit the whole frame for maximum quality.

Now, if digital is your desired final result, then the sensor size doesn't matter so much.

Kodak happens to make (or made) a full frame 6x7 sensor. I'm sure that they are not around anymore or if so have been upgraded, but at one time all of their sensors were full frame, even for 35mm.

PE

c6h6o3 · Feb 19, 2008

JohnArs said:
You still can use the instant Fuji Films which anyway are better!

Why is Fuji still producing instant films when Polaroid isn't? Because to produce them is an incredibly capital intensive process. Only Fuji or Kodak (and I'm not all that sure about Kodak) could possibly have sufficient heft in the balance sheet to support what has devolved into a sub-market of an already niche market.

I love Polaroid film, but I've known for years now that the plug on the life support system would someday have to be pulled. Frankly, I'm grateful that the two major players are still making any kind of film at all.

Photo Engineer · Feb 19, 2008

Kodak destroyed all of the expensive pack assembly equipment when they lost the lawsuit and they were also forced to agree to never produce an instant film product. At least that is my remebrance. I did see the machines being turned into scrap and being placed in dump trucks to be hauled away.

Kodak would never get into this field again.

PE

haris · Feb 19, 2008

I don't use Polaroid, that is I used it few times with my cheap 600 type camera, but not much. And I do have Polaroid back for my Mamya RB, and now it will collect dust (Ok, there is Fuji). For me, thing is next: I would prefer Ilford (Harman) to safely continue to make its b/w and Ilfochrome products, rather than get into Polaroid film making experiment and put in danger their "original" products and/or company.

Sorry to Polaroid users, but ...

tim_walls · Feb 19, 2008

haris said:
I don't use Polaroid, that is I used it few times with my cheap 600 type camera, but not much. And I do have Polaroid back for my Mamya RB, and now it will collect dust (Ok, there is Fuji). For me, thing is next: I would prefer Ilford (Harman) to safely continue to make its b/w and Ilfochrome products, rather than get into Polaroid film making experiment and put in danger their "original" products and/or company.

Harman don't make Ilfochrome, unfortunately - that's still the 'old' Ilford, and it's following a similar product progression to Polaroid right now (i.e. the 'if we make it astonishingly expensive noone will buy it and then we can tell everyone there was no demand' economic model.)

If Harman really want to invest money in a niche business with limited chance of return on investment, I'd rather they took over production of Ilfochrome when old-Ilford inevitably drop it, than Polaroid.

haris · Feb 19, 2008

tim_walls said:
Harman don't make Ilfochrome, unfortunately - that's still the 'old' Ilford...

That's why I wrote Ilford (Harman) not Ilford Harman, Altough it would maybe be more precise if I wrote Harman (Ilford) because I put b/w before Ilfochrome

And I am have simillar thinking as you tim regarding should Harman took over Polaroid or Ilfochrome if/when time comes, altough as far as I am concern, whatever would put Harman and their b/w products in danger I would kindly an politely ask them to STAY AWAY FROM IT! ...

AgX · Feb 19, 2008

Haris,

You make me dizzy...

There is IlfordPhoto and there is Ilford Imaging.

There is the Harman group and there is the Oji Paper group.

And there is, and will be, Polaroid.

(maybe this will make one dizzy too...)

Addendum:
I now realize that with Ilfochrome you meant just the halide colour materials.
But did not IlfordPhoto not that long ago stated that they wanted to stay out of colour??

haris · Feb 19, 2008

AgX said:
Haris,

You make me dizzy...

There is IlfordPhoto and there is Ilford Imaging.

There is the Harman group and there is the Oji Paper group.

And there is, and will be, Polaroid.

(maybe this will make one dizzy too...)

Addendum:
I now realize that with Ilfochrome you meant just the halide colour materials.
But did not IlfordPhoto not that long ago stated that they wanted to stay out of colour??

Ok, as I understand, and what I am reffernig to when write Harman are lads and gals who make Hp5+, FP4+, etc, that is people who are represented here by our dear Simon... then Ilfochrome would be, if I am not wrong, Ilford, that is Oji Paper group?

Ok, now I make myself dizzy

In any case, I am b/w user, and whatever put maker of Hp5+, Fp4+, etc in danger is my enemy

I don't know, maybe IlfordPhoto did stated they won't go into colour, I just said I am thinking as tim, and that is if there will be in future some idea by people in IlfordPhoto what to save, Ilfochrome or Polaroid, I would most likely vote for Ilfochrome. Saying that I hope, and I think it would be logical, that Fuji fill space left after Polaroid 's leaving.

Then again, if IlfordPhoto that is Harman (Ok, dizzyness are comming again ) find they have interest to buy technology, intelectual properties, etc... and continue to make Polaroid products I would be happy. Of course, and I am starting to be annoying, only if that don't put b/w products in danger

Fintan · Feb 20, 2008

Martin Reed said:
Maybe the best thing, rather than going through lots of hand wringing would be to shoot some good stuff on Polaroid this year while there's still fresh stock, and make something of an event of it. Are any galleries out there going to promote any shows to give Polaroid a send-off?

I'm beginning to think its unfair to expect/plead/beg Ilford Harmon to ride in on the black horse and save the day (although I must say I would dearly love them to)

And so I've been thinking about Martins suggestion above for a few days and damnit you have a point Mr Reed.

gr82bart · Mar 11, 2008

I think Ilford buying Polaroid's film business would be a great acquisition. Ilford already knows the "still film" industry and their management is experienced. I would suspect they would prune the SKUs though to a basic B&W and colour product in pack and sheet sizes, and hopefully keep a "Type 55" around. If the Petters Group is willing to sell/lease key production facilities and can come to an arrangement with critical employees, then, this would be a relatively easy transfer of ownership agreement. I hope it happens.

Regards, Art.

Renato Tonelli · Mar 11, 2008

I'm thinking (hoping?) along the same line as Art. Trim the product catalogue to the basic minimum in a small facility. Managed carefully, I think it would be profitable. But then again, it might be wishful thinking on my part.

8x10_Ed · May 3, 2008

The rising price of polaroid film and the advent and of digital cameras did hurt one of polaroid's core markets which was commercial photographers who used polaroid film to check their lighting. I guess polaroid didnt realize what the other demographics were willing to pay. Take a look at the price of 809 on ebay... Polaroid could be making a killing right now. But they seem more interested in making little digital printers for consumers. How long do you think it will take epson to make a cheaper and better version of the little printer concept? They really need to come up with something more innovative or stick to addressing their niche markets like instant film. They are trading something secure and timeless for a chance to play poker with the big boys like Epson and HP.

I would not be surprised if polaroid goes under in the next 5 -10 years.

Guillaume Zuili · May 4, 2008

They just bought the name, will use it till no more juice... and drop it. They are just thugs.

Barry S · May 4, 2008

Exactly--they bought the brand. They no longer do any R&D or make anything. The physical assets are all being liquidated, and the brand licensed and slapped on cheap goods, until there is no more equity left in the Polaroid name. Polaroid as a company has ceased to exist in the conventional sense.

Could Ilford make Polaroid?

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