Could Ilford make Polaroid?

Falkenberg · Feb 14, 2008

How do we get Ilford to take over on making Polaroid products. They seem very committed to analogue products. Polaroid are looking for a company to take over from what I read in a press release.

Any input on this idea ?

Andy K · Feb 14, 2008

I think the title of this thread needs a question mark, as a statement it could be misleading!

I doubt Ilford would take on making Polaroid. If they were to take on a discontinued product I would much prefer to see them making an HIE equivalent.

kraker · Feb 14, 2008

Andy K said:
I think the title of this thread needs a question mark, as a statement it could be misleading!

Agreed, a question mark at the very least.

And... as much as I would love to see continued availability of Polaroid products, I'm not too keen on Ilford taking this up. Yes, they are commited; yes, it may seem a logical choice, but let's be honest, in the end, it's the money that counts. There's a reason for Polaroid ceasing production. 24000 APUGers, even if they would *all* shoot polaroid, is not enough to keep a full range of Polaroid products. At least, that's my guess. I wouldn't want to see Ilford going down again... One time is more than enough!

I'm just guessing here, there are people who have a much better grasp on sales, costs of production and all other numbers involved (I don't know how helpful the Polaroid company would be in providing their recenet figures?)... So, if HARMAN or any other company would want to look into this, I'm sure they can come up with a more funded conclusion...

And of course, I would be happy if that conclusion would be "we'll DO it!"

Akki14 · Feb 14, 2008

I think Fujifilm would be more likely to take it up because they already produce B&W and colour instant film (in pull-apart pack films and in integratal varieties). I'd hate to see Ilford go under purely because they tried to take on something they're just not set up to produce.

Aurelien · Feb 14, 2008

Everybody knows that the biggest issue with HIE making is quality control. On the major part of films, quality control is made with Infra red reading of the film surface. It's impossible with HIE. So kodak had a special plant for this film, with employees working in total darkness. This type of plant is not economically possible, now.
With polaroid clearance of all films, it's a part of photography that is going away. Lots of great photographers are still going using instant films and the loss of their working material is really a pity. So, whoever it is, if a company could make new instant films (I think Fuji could) it would be a great new.

tim_walls · Feb 14, 2008

Presumably, the problems of IR are also problems for Ilford with SFX. And as for working in darkness... Do you think they make HP5+ with the lights on? :-D. All panchromatic films require manufacturing in total darkness.

(Not suggesting IR sensitive films don't have their own special manufacturing problems - I was just rather tickled by the idea that normal film wasn't made in the dark. I seem to recall the lightswitch on the coating line at Ilford had three positions - total darkness for films, safelight for paper, and 'regular' for maintenance. I may be misremembering though.)

Ian Grant · Feb 14, 2008

Ilford do not have a particularly significant footprint in the world photography market place, their products aren't mainstream and are only sold by more specialist photo stores.

On the other hand most towns and cities have many shops and stores selling Kodak and Fuji products, and so Fuji would be the only logical company to market Polaroid compatible alternatives, plus they already have all the technology.

It has to be realised that the market outside the North America and Europe is very different, where I live there must be a eight or nine "photo" shops, none sell any B&W materials or 120 film, but they all sell Kodak or Fuji consumer colour films.

So to think Ilford would want to even contemplate taking over manufacture of Polaroid materials is rather far fetched.

Ian

Aurelien · Feb 14, 2008

tim_walls said:
Presumably, the problems of IR are also problems for Ilford with SFX. And as for working in darkness... Do you think they make HP5+ with the lights on? :-D. All panchromatic films require manufacturing in total darkness.

(Not suggesting IR sensitive films don't have their own special manufacturing problems - I was just rather tickled by the idea that normal film wasn't made in the dark. I seem to recall the lightswitch on the coating line at Ilford had three positions - total darkness for films, safelight for paper, and 'regular' for maintenance. I may be misremembering though.)

Of course, all films are made in total darkness. But with panchromatic films, or near IR films, quality control is made autimatically, with an IR reader (I don't know the wavelength, but it is compatible with SFX, of course). So employees have not to work and to manipulate films in total darkness. Machines do it.

Falkenberg · Feb 14, 2008

Sorry about the missing questionamark. I am sure that it is not worth the trouble for any company to continue Polaroids entire line of products, but I am sure that there must be a market for the 4x5" and larger products used for all the fancy artwork. That would limit the number of producst and make it easier for any company to continue this production. Who knows, Polaroid may even end up doing some limited productions from time to time for this market. I just hope that we can continue to get these product for many years.

Ole · Feb 14, 2008

I've changed the title to something closer to what was intended.

Falkenberg · Feb 14, 2008

thanks

Alex Bishop-Thorpe · Feb 14, 2008

I'm sure Ilford taking up Polaroid would require a lot of retooling, and they've already told us how expensive it would be to repair the machine to finish 220 format film. If 220 format is beyond their current means, I wouldn't hold out for Polaroid. I love Ilford dearly, but Kodak and Fuji have the biggest plants and the most money in this game, and Fuji already makes an instant product. I'd start writing some letters to Fuji.

Monophoto · Feb 14, 2008

Theoretically, Ilford could make Polaroid. But I would be very concerned about a decision to expand into an area that is so dramatically different from their core businesses.

Taking on a very different product line has the risk of requiring substantial investment, and could detract from Ilford's traditional b/w product line. I don't think any of us would want to see Ilford's viability jeopardized by an adventure in instant technology.

The logical company to take over from Polaroid is Fuji, both because they are already invested in instant techology, and because (AFAIK) they are a bigger company can can afford to take the risk.

Early Riser · Feb 14, 2008

I can't imagine that Fuji would want to buy the hardware from polaroid, however it might be cost effective for fuji to buy the formulations for the most popular polaroid products and adapt them to work on fuji's existing production lines.

In my studio days I'd go through a case or two of 55 and a case of 59 every week. 55 was a God send for checking focus on the neg prior to shooting film. Even now I still shoot about 4-6 boxes of 55 on my field trips and while I can live without it is still an invaluable tool for composing, evaluating and exposing a scene. It's a shame the stuff doesn't last long or I'd buy a ton of it now.

Anybody want to buy a Polaroid 8x10 processor and holder?

Pinholemaster · Feb 14, 2008

Fuji has under license, so they can pick up the ball. I wander if this nulls the law suit against Kodak for infringing on Polaroid's patents? Perhaps Kodak can stop making those silly digital sensors, and start making Type 55? Grin.

AgX · Feb 14, 2008

Ian Grant said:
Ilford do not have a particularly significant footprint in the world photography market place, their products aren't mainstream and are only sold by more specialist photo stores.

Where I live one still can get different of Ilford 135 films in really small country towns.

Ian Grant · Feb 14, 2008

AgX said:
Where I live one still can get different of Ilford 135 films in really small country towns.

You obviously missed: "It has to be realised that the market outside the North America and Europe is very different" you live in Europe.

Yes when I'm in the UK in most small towns I could probably buy a couple of roll of 35mm Ilford B&W film, and maybe have a choice of 100EI/400EI or XP2, but often no more than that and usually no 120.

But the rest of the world is very different, sure I can buy film but usually only in major cities, and with a limited choice, I have an hours drive to buy B&W film. Even then some Ilford films are just not available because the importer doesn't order them from Mobberely.

Getting B&W films in Santiago, Chile was very difficult, almost no stores sold 120 B&W film, plenty of Ilford 35mm. I did eventually find some 120 FP4 & HP5, I had wanted Tmax400.

My point is that buying Fuji & Kodak consumer colour film is extremely easy anywhere in the world.

Ian

Daniel Lawton · Feb 14, 2008

To me the important question isn't whether or not a company will pick up production of Polaroid products, but whether anyone would buy them if they did. The reason Polaroid is ceasing production is because people are no longer using instant films in significant quantities. For a company to be interested in carrying on the product line, there would have to be a reason to believe this would change in the future. Even the most opitimistic of people would have a hard time imagining this. Indeed, large size photo companies like Kodak and Fuji have produced niche products at a minimal or negative profit levels for the sake of customer loyalty in the past, but as we have seen over the last few years, those days are coming to an end.

Marco B · Feb 14, 2008

If some company is going to pick up where Polaroid left, I sure hope they will produce a 400 ISO instant film as well. With Fuji only producing 100 ISO, and a probably not much used 3000 ISO (what is this actually used for :confused, instant packfilm, there is sure a gap in the film program.

Many LF people shoot 400 ISO film (400TMX, HP5, 320TXP), having an instant film with a 400 ISO sensitivity (like type 52 Polaroids) as a quick proofing tool to check exposures in critical situations, is an invaluable thing...

Marco

My website

kraker · Feb 14, 2008

Daniel Lawton said:
To me the important question isn't whether or not a company will pick up production of Polaroid products, but whether anyone would buy them if they did. The reason Polaroid is ceasing production is because people are no longer using instant films in significant quantities.

I'm afraid "in significant quantities" is the key here. I buy Polaroid now, and I would continue to do so if it were possible, but what I buy (and even what 24000 APUGers could possibly buy) is only known as "insignificant quantities".

keithwms · Feb 14, 2008

Marco B said:
If some company is going to pick up where Polaroid left, I sure hope they will produce a 400 ISO instant film as well. With Fuji only producing 100 ISO, and a probably not much used 3000 ISO (what is this actually used for :confused, instant packfilm, there is sure a gap in the film program.

Marco, Fuji also makes a 400 speed b&w instant film, and the 3000 is excellent stuff. I use it for handheld 4x5 stuff and testing exposure in low light. You get detailed, grainless, smooth prints. Note that not all of the Fuji instant stuff is available outside Japan (patent issues?), but that will likely change now. And anyway you can order the stuff from Japan via megaperls. I've never had any issues with stuff I got from them, it's wonderful. Honestly- never had a bad pack or suspect exposure. I can't say enough good things about Fuji's QC.

Once I asked Fuji if they could kindly make some 8x10 instant material (fp100c) and they didn't blow me off, but it wasn't doable at the time.

Wish they would make type 55...

P.S. Incidentally, I recently saw polaroid 809 for sale at megaperls... hmmmm.... could it be true....

Marco B · Feb 14, 2008

keithwms said:
Marco, Fuji also makes a 400 speed b&w instant film, and the 3000 is excellent stuff.

Interesting Keith, but where is this film actually sold :confused:. I neither see this 400 ISO B/W instant film mentioned on the Dutch Fujifilm website, nor on the United States website of Fujifilm, nor have I ever seen it in shops????

Marco B · Feb 14, 2008

OK Keith, sorry, I missed your "Megaperls" remark. I have now found the webshop you mentioned with all the instant films. Gee, and that's a lot more than I expected!:

Dead Link Removed

Don't entirely understand the Megaperls name though..., considering the webadress.

In addition, do you know for what kind and size of camera and holder the 500 ISO instant film is, it's slightly bigger in size than the 400 ISO Fuji instant film for 4x5 (size 85x108mm)? Do these 85x108mm and 102 x 131mm variants of the instant films use the same holder / instant camera back?

Instant B/W Film FP-500B45, size 102 x 131mm
Dead Link Removed

Photo Engineer · Feb 14, 2008

You have missed one important fact. Ilford might be able to coat Polaroid film, but the assembly of the packs and pod manufacture is a very difficult proposition that takes specialized equipment. Unless you already have that equipment it would cost millions to get into this business.

PE

pauliej · Feb 14, 2008

If ANY group/company/etc. were to acquire the Polaroid assets, they would surely have some indication of future sales (and revenue) potential of the products they wanted to produce. If not Fuji, then they would have to understand they would be competing with Fuji to some extent. How would they calculate these potential sales? Good question. If the sales were out there, Polaroid would still be in the business.

Paul

Could Ilford make Polaroid?

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