Copying negatives - is it possible?

[tkamiya]

I'm not sure if this is even possible.

I have several frames of B&W 35mm negs that I really like. Is there any way to duplicate this to another 35mm film or possibly larger, say to medium format size? Are there companies that will provide this types of service? Can I do it at home? I was briefly thinking about using something like TMAX-100 sheet film and my enlarger, then process it to provide a positive image of the negative (thus negative) but I don't think I can do this with accurate exposure.

 

[BetterSense]

Why do you want a duplicate? I have enlarged 35mm color slides to 4x5 film to make B&W prints. It works very well. If you can managed to control contrast all the way through, I don't see why you can't print the 35mm slide to a sheet of film, then contact print that film to another sheet. Again, controlling contrast is going to be the main trick, and I'm not very technical about stuff like that.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Yes. There are several film to film methods published including some which invoves harware. A simple film duplicator on the camera allows this, but I have also done this with an enlarger. I have done it in color and B&W.

PE

 

[tkamiya]

Better Sense:
Did you do that with an enlarger? Why? I like these images and I'd like to make copies of them so I can fully explore without possibly causing damage.

PE:
Is it just a matter of setting up film as if it were a paper, then expose??? Am I correct that I can use Tmax100 and process it as positive or are there better product for this kind of thing?

 

[wogster]

Better Sense:
Did you do that with an enlarger? Why? I like these images and I'd like to make copies of them so I can fully explore without possibly causing damage.

PE:
Is it just a matter of setting up film as if it were a paper, then expose??? Am I correct that I can use Tmax100 and process it as positive or are there better product for this kind of thing?

What may be the best way is to enlarge the image onto 4x5 film, then process as reversal B&W film, all you need extra is a bleach, and there are formulas for bleaches online, after bleaching, turn on the lights, then develop, stop, fix wash and you have a nice big copy negative to work with, nice thing is, you can use a really slow, fine grain film and developer. you want something like a 12 ASA and then pull it another stop or two.

 

[Nicholas Lindan]

You can make enlarged copy negatives using X-Ray duplicating film. This gives you an enlarged negative - 8x10, say - that you then contact to make prints. You process the duplicating film as if it were a print. This is also a good way to start playing around with Cyanotypes and VanDykes, not to mention Pt/Pd for the heavy wallet brigade.

You can also process TMX to a diapositive - a slide that will result in a 'copy negative'. Kodak used to sell a reversal kit but it is possible to DIY the chemistry.

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

 

[tkamiya]

Paul,

Thank you for your informed comment! Can you recommend a particular film? I don't even know where to begin.... I said Tmax100 because I knew Kodak meant that film to be both positive and negative depending on processing.

 

[wogster]

Paul,

Thank you for your informed comment! Can you recommend a particular film? I don't even know where to begin.... I said Tmax100 because I knew Kodak meant that film to be both positive and negative depending on processing.

Slowest B&W film still around, might be Ilford Pan F, but that's still a little fast....

 

[BetterSense]

Did you do that with an enlarger?

Yes

Why?

I honestly can't think of any other way. I was using whatever slow film I had at the time...delta 100, TMX, and Foma 100. I rememeber exposure times of about a second at f/22 for an uncropped slide.

 

[Photo Engineer]

I make my color and B&W copies on-easel with an enlarger in some cases. I use f22 at 1/2" with and without color balance depending on whether it is B&W or color. In-camera, I use a snap on device for my Nikons which can take either a slide or a strip of original unmounted film and I expose to get the right density in reversal or negative and either color or B&W. So, basically I use a variety of methods.

With my Nikon using color, I use a white card and daylight as the background and let the Nikon make an auto-exposure. I have many many strips done this way, and many 4x5s done on-easel.

The device I use is an Acall Reverser. Nothing turns up in a Google Search, but I have two different devices from two companies which can do this type of job.

From a print, you can take a photo using any camera with the proper setup. I have done many of those as well.

PE

 

[Newt_on_Swings]

Does film to film capture = an increase of grain?

Also couldn't you do make a 2 contact sheets with 4x5 film? It might work, though exposure would be pretty tricky.

 

[removed account4]

t -

photowarehouse sells single step photo duplicating film.
it allows you to contact print your film onto this film
and get a negative. otherwise you will have to make a positive internegative
( on film ) and then a negative from that.
you can also make a positive print ( paper )
and contact print THAT onto another sheet of paper to get a paper negative ...
you can work / retouch the paper negative and then make contact prints from that ...

the photowarehouse film is their version of kodak's so-132.
it is super slow ( you need a flood light to expose it, like azo/lodima &C )
but you can process it with a safelight ...

when kodak discontinued so132 they suggested tmx ( 100 ) was a replacement
... you make test strips, and enlarge onto the film as you would with paper ( in complete darkness )
then you get a positive ... which can be contact printed onto another sheet of tmx ...


have fun !
john

 

[SkipA]

Would something like a Loersch Dia-Neg 2000 work for duplicating 35mm negatives onto the photowarehouse version of so-132?

 

[tkamiya]

I'm feeling very ill equipped to do this on my own.... Thanks everybody for trying to help.

 

[Roger Cole]

Is anyone successfully making internegatives from slides anymore? I'd like a way to chemically and optically print many of the Kodachrome slides I shot last year without the expense (and frequent contrast masking) of Ilfochrome. With purpose made film gone what color neg film would be best?

Duping color negs onto reversal processed B&W film would seem the only way to get really good conventional B&W prints from color negs now with Panalure gone.

 

[anon12345]

This approach may, or may not work for you. I recently wanted a negative so that I could make a 16x20 print from a small 1800's print (3.75"x4.5"). I simply photographed the print with a 4x5 camera while using just a 60 watt bulb for illumination. I then made the larger print using the new 4x5 negative. I was very please with the results. Of course this is not an exact reproduction of the original negative. And in my case I had no access to the original, which was probably lost a hundred years ago. But, nonetheless I ended up with a negative that can be used to make multiple prints of any reasonable size.

 

[Nicholas Lindan]

I'm feeling very ill equipped to do this on my own.

It's very easy.

Duplicating film is the easiest way to go if you have an enlarger:
http://www.ultrafineonline.com/ulcotodufi.html
No more trouble than making a print...

 

[Morry Katz]

When I want to copy a negatiave, I tape it to my light box, mask it with black plastic and frame it as tightly as possible with a reverse mounted 80 mm lens on my Rollei SL 66. A spot reading gives the basis for some exposure brackets. I shoot on a fine grain film like Delta 100.
It's quick, easy and if I'm copying a 35 mm neg results in a 645-size negataive to use in the enlarger. Have fun.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Is anyone successfully making internegatives from slides anymore? I'd like a way to chemically and optically print many of the Kodachrome slides I shot last year without the expense (and frequent contrast masking) of Ilfochrome. With purpose made film gone what color neg film would be best?

Duping color negs onto reversal processed B&W film would seem the only way to get really good conventional B&W prints from color negs now with Panalure gone.

Roger;

I have duped quite a few of my Kodachrome and Ektachrome slides onto Portra VC film. I use a pull process of about 15" less in the developer. I use a 1/2" exposure with my enlarger with color balance set at 100C and 30M which is "daylight" with my setup. I make 2x3 or 3x4 internegatives onto 4x5 film.

PE

 

[RPC]

PE, I recall you saying before that Kodak recommends using Portra VC for making internegatives. Do you find Portra NC works better?

RPC

 

[Jim Noel]

You are overlooking lith films. They are ideal for duplicating negatives in the darkroom. Speed is generally 3 - 6. If developed in more dilute film developers contrast control is excellent. Some use paper developers, but these are more active than film developers thus producing too much contrast. Also these films can be handled under a red safe light which is a big asset when compared to panchromatic films.
You will need to eliminate light leaks from the enlarger regardless of the method used.

 

[Photo Engineer]

In answer to questions, I goofed and typed NC where it should have been VC. Sorry all.

PE

 

[jeffreyg]

As Nicholas mentioned x-ray duplicating film. I have used Kodak Xomat-2 Dental x-ray duplicating film with their GBX chemistry for many years to both duplicate radiographs and to enlarge negatives for pt/pd contact printing. It produces an excellent negative either contact produced or with an enlarger. It is a reversal film so no inter-negative is necessary. It is very slow and you should place the original negative (if enlarging) emulsion up in the negative carrier. Burning will yield a "lighter" negative and thus a "darker" print and visa versa with dodging. Contrast can be modified by length of development time. It is essentially like making a paper print.

http://www.jeffreyglasser.com/

 

[Mainecoonmaniac]

I know this is a 3rd generation of the original, but how about photographing a well made print from the neg? I've heard W. Eugene Smith does that.

 

[Mike Wilde]

I have 90' left out of 100' of 35mm out of date by at least 30 years. It is called Kodak SO-2575 'high speed direct duplicating film'.
It has an ei of about 0.12 now. I have no idea how fast it was when new.

It is a document film- ie really high contrast - but I have calibrated it to suit duping continuous tone material using home compounded low contrast and dilute commercial developers pictorial results.

I use it mostly to dupe old negs before I try stuff like intensifying or reducing them to try to improve thier printing quality.
Mostly this applies to old negs I shot before I knew what the proper use of development was, or what my wife's grandfather shot 50-70 years ago. Some of these old negs are horribly dense, and others are too thin from poor development.

I use a slide duper bellows rig and macro lens for copying 35mm material and a 35mm/4x5 Polariod technical copy camera with an old spare Omega D dichroic head inverted on the baseboard to backlight larger negs.

I also have a fair bit of 100' of 35mm old Kodak 'fine grain positiive release' left. It is currently rated at about EI3-EI6.
Fine Grained is kind of like kodabromide enlarging paper on film stock.
It too can be used to yield continuous tone work, but is not as high contrast as the SO2575.
It is not as straight lined in its response as the SO2575 is for providing a good quality dupe neg.

These direct positive films are pre flashed at time of manufacture, and you are exposing past the shoulder of the highlights, to get the direct direct positive result.

The third dupe film I use, though not for direct negatives is Technical Pan. I fluked into a 30year old full 25 sheets box of 8x10 of this stuff last month for $5.
I cut it down to 4x5 to feed it into a 4x5 Polaroid copy camera that I have. Regretably on about one out of every 4 4x5's I cut there is a gelatine adhesion problems, likely from being stuck to the sheet next to it somewhere warm for a long while.

Even with this annoying defect, it is a very versatile film that with a home brew low contrast developer gives a good linear response that is good for duping by neg duped to positive, and then contact printed to an enlarged negative again. It does very little to add its own grain to the duped neg.

Your should hunt high and low for an 80's era Kodak book called 'Copying and Duplicating'.
It can teach you a lot about copying neg's even if a lot of the films mentioned in the book are out of production.
This book recommends Plus X pan as a viable dupe film as well. I have not tried TMax100, which Kodak recommended as a sucessor to Plus X (at least I think that Kodak dropped Plus X).

As another aside, a 31 step step wedge and use of a lab's desititometer really help in getting your duping skills under control.

PM me if you want to negotiate for some of my more obscure stocks, and I will spool off a couple of 35mm cassetes of what you might like to play with and mail them on to you.
Payment by way of Paypal in $Can or $US is fine with me for covering the costs.