Copal #0 shutter slow speeds

[loccdor]

I have a Copal #0 originally from a Polaroid 110A Land Camera 127mm f/4.7. Speeds 1/15-1/300 seem good but 1-1/8 just cause the shutter to stick open. I don't really see grease on the blades. Bulb mode works fine. Cable release and standard release both have the same behavior.

Anyone know what causes this abrupt cutoff of the slow speeds?

 

[Kino]

Speculating that it is probably an escapement gear train that engages at the 1/8 shutter speed level that needs to be cleaned and lubed.

How one does that on this particular shutter, I do not know.

Maybe this will help:

Prontor SV, SVS, and Pronto Shutter Repair Manual

Factory service manual

learncamerarepair.com

 

[loccdor]

@Kino Thank you!

 

[retina_restoration]

The slow gear train is dirty/greasy.

 

[loccdor]

The slow gear train is dirty/greasy.

Thanks! I think I'll try opening it up and cleaning/lubing that area while disassembling as little as possible. I saw that the old Retina Rescue site has a PDF manual and am also looking at a couple videos.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

I have a Copal #0 originally from a Polaroid 110A Land Camera 127mm f/4.7. Speeds 1/15-1/300 seem good but 1-1/8 just cause the shutter to stick open. I don't really see grease on the blades. Bulb mode works fine. Cable release and standard release both have the same behavior.

Anyone know what causes this abrupt cutoff of the slow speeds?

View attachment 415837View attachment 415839View attachment 415838

correct. this is caused by hardening grease due to age or lack of use and only a clean and relube will help.

 

[Dan Fromm]

OP, Copal <>Prontor.

#0 is a size standard. There are Compur, Prontor and Copal brand shutters made to the #0 standard.

You have a #0 Prontor SVS. Repair instructions here: https://archive.org/details/prontor-s-sv-svs-1/001_pdfsam_prontor/

 

[loccdor]

I was able to lube it and get it fully working with a few hours effort! It wasn't very dirty inside, but it was dry as a bone.

 

[Dan Daniel]

Nice. Looks to be in good condition.

 

[MattKing]

Artistic background for the photo as well

 

[monopix]

I was able to lube it and get it fully working with a few hours effort! It wasn't very dirty inside, but it was dry as a bone.

Cleaning rather than lubrication is the answer. You should not be applying oil anywhere. These shutters run dry. Did you read the manual someone else linked to?

 

[loccdor]

Cleaning rather than lubrication is the answer. You should not be applying oil anywhere. These shutters run dry. Did you read the manual someone else linked to?

I didn't get any oil on the blades. If the oil causes problems in a few years, I can open it up again and clean it with a solvent, but it's working well for now. The level of disassembly required to adequately clean every part of this thoroughly is not in my abilities.

 

[Dan Daniel]

Cleaning rather than lubrication is the answer. You should not be applying oil anywhere. These shutters run dry. Did you read the manual someone else linked to?

View attachment 415917

I wonder if decades of oxidation and such make lubrication almost necessary? I can understand clean, freshly polished surfaces working well. And binding from the surface tension of oil or grease might be a failure point. But maybe time and corrosion introduce drag that is best overcome with oil, less drag than the corrosion?

Just thinking out loud here.

 

[loccdor]

Could be. Bug me for an update here three years from now...

 

[monopix]

The level of disassembly required to adequately clean every part of this thoroughly is not in my abilities.

Not really. Dunk the whole shutter in an ultrasonic cleaner filled with IPA (note precautions using IPA in an ultrasonic cleaner).

 

[monopix]

I wonder if decades of oxidation and such make lubrication almost necessary? I can understand clean, freshly polished surfaces working well. And binding from the surface tension of oil or grease might be a failure point. But maybe time and corrosion introduce drag that is best overcome with oil, less drag than the corrosion?

Just thinking out loud here.

In old shutters, sometimes, a very small amout of oil in appropriate places can help. But we're talking almost invisible amounts and only in certain places like spindle bearings of escapements.

 

[retina_restoration]

Not really. Dunk the whole shutter in an ultrasonic cleaner filled with IPA (note precautions using IPA in an ultrasonic cleaner).

If there are any painted surfaces on the shutter in question, this practice will strip any and all paint off the components. If there are any plastic components in that shutter, this will potentially ruin those as well. This is absolutely NOT correct technique.

 

[monopix]

If there are any painted surfaces on the shutter in question, this practice will strip any and all paint off the components. If there are any plastic components in that shutter, this will potentially ruin those as well. This is absolutely NOT correct technique.

Well, it's something I've done many times with no negative effects. Maybe you shouldn't comment unless you've actual personal experience. Maybe you're one of these people who like to make out the only way of doing something is your way and can't accept that someone else may have a better way of doing it. Get over it.

 

[MattKing]

I have a feeling that @retina_restoration has a fair amount of experience wrt various repair options, given his experience repairing Retina cameras.
For that reason, I would pay attention to any warnings he passes on, even if there are examples of shutters and lenses and cameras that would not be deleteriously affected by a dunk in alcohol.

 

[loccdor]

Yeah, it's going to depend on the type of paint: I've tested alcohol with painted surfaces in my house. Some it's fine with, others start peeling up immediately. You'll find the same with cameras, and you probably won't know until it's too late.

 

[retina_restoration]

Well, it's something I've done many times with no negative effects. Maybe you shouldn't comment unless you've actual personal experience. Maybe you're one of these people who like to make out the only way of doing something is your way and can't accept that someone else may have a better way of doing it. Get over it.

Oh lord.
Yeah, maybe I don't know WTF I'm talking about. smh

 

[retina_restoration]

Yeah, it's going to depend on the type of paint: I've tested alcohol with painted surfaces in my house. Some it's fine with, others start peeling up immediately. You'll find the same with cameras, and you probably won't know until it's too late.

Yes, but alcohol + ultrasonic cleaner — that's a very different circumstance. Monopix specifically stated: "Dunk the whole shutter in an ultrasonic cleaner filled with IPA". But hey, go ahead and try it. Nothing like FAFO.

 

[retina_restoration]

I have a feeling that @retina_restoration has a fair amount of experience wrt various repair options, given his experience repairing Retina cameras.
For that reason, I would pay attention to any warnings he passes on, even if there are examples of shutters and lenses and cameras that would not be deleteriously affected by a dunk in alcohol.

Appreciate that.
All I need to point out is that Monopix suggested using alcohol with an ultrasonic cleaner, which is a very different thing than simply cleaning something with alcohol.

 

[monopix]

Appreciate that.
All I need to point out is that Monopix suggested using alcohol with an ultrasonic cleaner, which is a very different thing than simply cleaning something with alcohol.

And like I said, I've done it without an issue whereas you're just making assumptions based on no experience whatsoever. Typical Internet expert. Move on.

 

[BrianShaw]

In old shutters, sometimes, a very small amout of oil in appropriate places can help. But we're talking almost invisible amounts and only in certain places like spindle bearings of escapements.

Same with tiny bits of grease where grease is better than oil.