Cooling TF-5?

George Collier · Jul 20, 2022

I keep distilled and tap water in a fridge to use in bringing solutions to temperature for developing film during the summer.
When preparing water for any of the steps, I use room temp distilled, or tap water to approximate what I will need, then cool to temp from refrigerated water. (Developer is 1 shot). I use ice with a small bucket for wash.
I have to cool the TF5 with an ice-water bath, but if I could keep a small amount of TF5 in the fridge, I could do the same as the other solutions. Would the chemistry come out of solution in the fridge (40-50 degrees F)?

jvo · Jul 21, 2022

i presume water at room temp in richmond is at a wide variance from what is needed - 68 degrees F?

I ask for 2 reasons... (let me state, I am not a "purist" a la' ansel, not in the work produced or darkroom!)

I lived in NY and Florida, and a couple places in between. I've always used all my chemicals at whatever the room temperature was... it usually varied between 68 and 72 - unbelievable! For developing film, I adjusted the time accordingly. For prints I would check the temp, and go to work.

At times I did try to adjust water temps and found it to be a fickle process, regardless of how exacting I tried to be, and I wasted water.

I wish you luck!

George Collier · Jul 21, 2022

Room temp in the basement is 77, water close to 80, I don't like to go above 72 for chems. And I believe, without testing, that the grain may benefit from temps not being too high.
With chilled liquids it's easy to come to the right temp, and I use a water jacket during processing.
Does anyone know the answer to my question about TF5?

jvo · Jul 21, 2022

I agree about max temp issues.

i used tf5, but alas, you've read my story! so, can't help. give it a couple days, someone will respond....

isn't the the question also whether tf5 is like others solutions, and will cooling impact it's usability by causing it to come out of solution, say.

good luck.

GregY · Jul 21, 2022

George, Fixer needs to be diluted anyways...so why refrigerate the chemical when you can adjust the temperature with water during dilution?

albada · Jul 21, 2022

I have refrigerated TF5, both concentrate and solution. Both store fine in the refrigerator, with no precipitation. The chemicals do not come out of solution when chilled.
Btw, I have used TF5 at 80 degrees for paper, and it works fine. But I wouldn't develop film at 80.

Mark Overton

Steven Lee · Jul 21, 2022

@George Collier I do not use a refrigerator, but my chems, including TF-5, are not in a climate controlled environment. In the winter it varies between 60F and 45F and I never had a problem with TF-5, neither with the working solution or a concentrate. I did have issues with other chemicals forming residue at the bottom, but not the fixers.

George Collier · Jul 21, 2022

GregY - the fixer is already diluted for working strength (I think they advise diluting the whole amount for chemical balance when you receive the concentrate). But Mark answered my question, thanks.

randyB · Jul 21, 2022

When I need to reduce the temp of a chemical a few degrees I 1st: don't fill the beaker completely full, 2nd: put 2-3 ice cubes in a sandwich bag, close with a twist tie and set it in the chemical for a few minutes constantly checking with a dial thermometer, stirring till the desired temp is close. I can usually get within 1 degree of my desired temp. The sandwich bag keeps the melting ice from diluting the chemical.

albada · Jul 22, 2022

randyB said:
When I need to reduce the temp of a chemical a few degrees I 1st: don't fill the beaker completely full, 2nd: put 2-3 ice cubes in a sandwich bag, close with a twist tie and set it in the chemical for a few minutes constantly checking with a dial thermometer, stirring till the desired temp is close. I can usually get within 1 degree of my desired temp. The sandwich bag keeps the melting ice from diluting the chemical.

How about cutting up a piece of rebar (used for reinforcing concrete) into short pieces and freezing them? I suppose they would be more convenient than working with ice.

Mark Overton

George Collier · Jul 22, 2022

I like the bag idea. I currently put the fix in a stainless steel tank and cool in an ice bath.
The rebar is interesting, but I think I'd use something stainless steel.
Thanks.

randyB · Jul 22, 2022

albada said:
How about cutting up a piece of rebar (used for reinforcing concrete) into short pieces and freezing them? I suppose they would be more convenient than working with ice.

Mark Overton

There is a reason they make tanks, beakers, print tongs, etc out of stainless steel.

lantau · Jul 22, 2022

I'm using a gel pack. It's always in the freezer at -18°C. I've got it from a dental surgeon when I received an implant to replace a molar. I don't remember having much pains, but it keeps serving me for this purpose.

Unfortunately I think it is too warm at the OPs place. 22->20°C is fine for a litre of dev. 24->20 is slower and I'm not sure if if has enough capacity for a higher difference. A bigger pack would cause my 1L Paterson measuring jug to overflow.

Andrew O'Neill · Jul 22, 2022

Living in Japan it was a constant Battle during summer getting chemicals temperature down. I kept distilled water, and even tap water in my tiny fridge. Cold tap water temp was 30°C! I also kept mixed fixer in the fridge. I got tired of making ice all the time, so those freezable bluish camping block things came in handy. Keeping that little room cool was another challenge! I much preferred winter!

albada · Jul 22, 2022

randyB said:
There is a reason they make tanks, beakers, print tongs, etc out of stainless steel.

Yes, rust would be a problem, unless the rebar was dried soon.
Instead of rebar, one can buy stainless-steel rod-stock from industrial suppliers, such as this example:
0.5"x3ft stainless-steel rod
That one would need to be cut into several pieces.

Sirius Glass · Jul 22, 2022

albada said:
How about cutting up a piece of rebar (used for reinforcing concrete) into short pieces and freezing them? I suppose they would be more convenient than working with ice.

Mark Overton

The rebar may react with the TF-5. Not a good idea.

albada · Jul 22, 2022

Here's a better choice of stainless-steel rod-stock:
3/4"x6" stainless-steel rod
This is beefier than my prior link (3/4" diameter), and 6" long should be suitable for the OP with no sawing needed. Stainless 316 is an excellent alloy.
Such rods could also be used to warm developer in winter.

I'll probably buy a few of these rods for myself. I'm thinking of using them for tempering both film- and paper-developer.
Before anyone buys them, does anyone know of a disadvantage of them?

Mark Overton

albada · Jul 25, 2022

I performed an experiment. It turns out that I made tool years ago out of 1-inch SS rod-stock for removing rear groups from Xenon lenses. I froze it, and put it in 200 ml of warm (24 C) developer in a small tray. In 30 seconds, it reduced the temperature by 3.5 degrees (C), and by 4.5 degrees in 60 seconds. My rod is 4.25 inches long, so a 6-inch rod should drop temperature by a bit over 6 degrees (C). Here's a link to 1-inch rod:
1"x6" stainless-steel rod
Most people probably use considerably more than 200 ml, so I suggest using two rods to temper very warm (or cool) developer.

The problem is that a warm SS tank and reel will warm the developer some, so you would need to cool the developer to a bit under 20C to compensate. Or just put beakers and tank in a water-bath cooled to 20C...

Mark Overton

Cooling TF-5?

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