converting B+w picture to color

Kong · Jan 28, 2008

Hi there,i saw an old ww2 photo in a magazine the other day,its a renowned photo with Churchill,Stalin,Roosevelt at the Yalta conference,im not sure the photo is originally in b+w,but since its a 1940s' photo,so i presumed its more likely a b+w photo,my question is can we convert our old b+w photos to colour with using new technology?thank you,and sorry for my english.

Shawn Rahman · Jan 28, 2008

Kong,

Why would you want to do this?

copake_ham · Jan 28, 2008

It depends.

There was a push by some in the movie (cinema) industry about 20 years ago to "colorize" older films that had been released in black and white.

There was a huge outcry against doing this - since the film genre had "intended" them to be in black and white. Imagine a 1940's film noir movie in color!

In addition, the "colorizers" found out that often the actors had often dressed in garish colors, particularly green, in order for the resultant monochrome film to have good contrast etc. So when they "colorized" these films - they looked garish, clownish and stupid!

As to your example, it's likely that any colorization of such a news shot would be dull and muddy. Besides, would you really want to see Stalin wearing a bright green suit!

EDIT: BTW - this is a film photography site - we don't use the "new technology".

removed account4 · Jan 28, 2008

hi kong --

welcome to apug!

since photography started in the early 1800s people have been adding color to black and white images.
the images you saw might have been tri-color prints where the photographer shot 3 views (rgb)
and then printed them out. sometimes colors were added through tinting/ painting the photographs as well.

some interesting websites on tri-color photography are here
http://64.233.179.104/translate_c?hl=en&langpair=de|en&u=http://www.dreifarbenfotografie.de/
and
http://www.beikey.net/mrs-deane/index.php?s=gorskii

have fun
john

removed account4 · Jan 28, 2008

SNIP

copake_ham said:
Imagine a 1940's film noir movie in color!

george:

some film noir films
were shot in color

Gigabitfilm · Jan 29, 2008

Hallo Kong: This is a good question. It is solved by industrial research. Read in german -S/W-Film als Farbfilm? Farbstreifen am grauen S/W-Horizont- in english: bw-film as colorfilm? Colourstripes at the horizont of photography published 10. May 2002 on
http://www.gigabitfilm.de/html/deutsch/anwendung/scan_und_print/scan_und_print.php?Layout=normal

The text describes the german patent DE-OS 3038908 and from International Congress of Photographic Science Cologne, 1986, a speech from the researchers Mr. SCHUMANN, ÖHLSCHLÄGER and KAMPFER:

On a developed silver the sensibilisator-dye can continue. On not exposed AgHal the not used dye will be wash out from emulsion. The remaining dye can re-activate with UV-light to luminescence. Modern bw-films can have up to four different dyes (even the desensi for blue is a dye). In the last years exist scanners in gen-technology, working with UV-light and spectral-sensors, who looks for the different spectral response of the luminescence-signal.

Because you have in a bw-film the resolution and grey-scale, you need not so much information about the colour. This is used every day in normal colour television. The resolution for the chromo-signal (blue, green, red) needs not to be so high as the classic bw resolution signal. Every day you can see this, because in Germany (and a lot of other states) we have in normal colour television the PAL-signal. The Pal-system needs for the colour in colour-TV only 2-5% of the signal of the whole TV-signal.

When somebody reads this, and you are working in a Gen-lab, please try it. Take a known bw-film, you have once developed, and look for the luminescence.

Ian Grant · Jan 29, 2008

Actually it's fairly easy to convert a B&W image to colour and you don't need modern technology.

Using of a variety of bleaches, toners, colour developer with dye-couplers, and re-touching dyes you can produce excellent colour images using B&W film and paper. James Wedge and Bob Carlos Clarke were probably the leading experts in this field. Wedge wrote a book on the subject in the late 70's or early 80's.

In practice it's remarkably easy and quite quick to do once you have built up some experience. I gave a few lectures on the subject about 20 years ago with practical demonstrations.

Ian

keithwms · Jan 29, 2008

I am picturing a handpainted photo of Churchill, Stalin and Roosevelt.

I think I would make Churchill yellow, Stalin red, and Roosevelt green.

Or something.

AgX · Jan 29, 2008

Ian,

Perhaps I am misinterpreting your post, but there is a difference between `colour´ and `natural colour´.

I don't see how the latter could be achieved by chromogenic redevelopment of a panchromatic emulsion, or any kind of layered emulsions, as long as there is no spatial difference between once differently sensitized grains.

David A. Goldfarb · Jan 29, 2008

Hand coloring of B&W photographs with transparent oil paints is not difficult and was quite common at one time, particularly for portraits. Of course it isn't necessary to color anything as it appeared when it was photographed in B&W. When I used to do it, I would often change the colors of people's clothing and such.

Ian Grant · Jan 29, 2008

AgX said:
Ian,
Perhaps I am misinterpreting your post, but there is a difference between `colour´ and `natural colour´.

I don't see how the latter could be achieved by chromogenic redevelopment of a panchromatic emulsion, or any kind of layered emulsions, as long as there is no spatial difference between once differently sensitized grains.

Yes you mis-interpreted

The chromogenic development is re-development of re-halogenated (bleached) parts of the B&W print.

My guess is that Bob Carlos Clark used the then readily obtainable Multitoner Chromogenic kit from Tetenal in Germany, after all he was being endorsed by Agfa. Samples of his best work can be found in his book "Dark Summer".

Ian

haris · Jan 29, 2008

There are few ways to colour b/w photographs. One is, of course hand colouring, that is to buy some photo colours and paint on photograph. Easies way are Tetenal's colour pencils, you use them like pencil colours, no needs for mixing colours. There are three sets of 10 or 12 pencils with different colours and shades in each set.

Next methods are unfortunately digi.

Scan b/w photo, paint it on PC and print it.

And, then, few years ago I was reading about Russian software which is used for restaurating old colour photographs where colour faded away or to colour b/w photographs. I saw samples of job on some really old photograph which Russians wanted to restaurate as national treasure, and was extremely impressed with results. But, unfortunatelly, it is not public software, it was invented for resturation jobs, and was not on market for selling at time I was reading about it.

And, as I remember, Israel software programmers made software for colouring b/w photos too. There was even free source code for download, and results were good too.

But, as I am not interested of doing digital photography (just to know about enemy to fight it ), I don't remember anymore where to find those softwares ...

haris · Jan 29, 2008

Shawn Rahman said:
Kong,

Why would you want to do this?

I like look of some hand coloured photographs which have look as impressionist paintings, and still didn't lost look and feel of photograph.

pauliej · Feb 1, 2008

I may be wrong, but I always thought the "colorization" of b/w films was pushed by the infamous Ted Turner, in a lame attempt to try to charge a few more pennies per showing for these old films on his cable channel. Sort of like re-painting a rental house, to make it more attractive to prospective tenants. Plus, the computers had trouble trying to de-cipher plaid pants colors, etc.

On another front, can anyone remember the last time the movie "Rollover", starring Jane Fonda and Kris Kristoferson was shown on any cable outlet? I dont think I have seen this since the 1980's. Not sure if Ted is keeping this one out, as ex-wife Jane is in it.

paulie

gordrob · Feb 2, 2008

Kong said:
,im not sure the photo is originally in b+w,but since its a 1940s' photo,so i presumed its more likely a b+w photo,

If the photo you are referring to is in the attached link - it was originally a colour photograph of the leaders at Yalta

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Yalta_summit_1945_with_Churchill,_Roosevelt,_Stalin.jpg

Gord

polaski · Feb 3, 2008

Tinting Photographs

We have on our wall just in front of me four prints of scenery by Wallace Nutting. His work (I suspect he had quite a few employees) was once quitr popular. Search for images on Google or eBay.

panastasia · Feb 14, 2008

I believe photo oils are the most permanent - in terms of long lasting - compared to other coloring methods. Paintings last for centuries. Same type of paint, basically.

Ian Grant · Feb 15, 2008

panastasia said:
I believe photo oils are the most permanent -

Photo-oils look particularly nasty and tell-tale, also peculiarly american.

The subtlety obtained by Wedge, Carlos-Clarke and others using the combinations of toners, dye-couplers and colour retouching dyes really need to be seen first hand, you would find it difficult to realise the print is made from a B&W negative and printed on colour paper.

Ian

panastasia · Feb 16, 2008

Ian Grant said:
Photo-oils look particularly nasty and tell-tale, also peculiarly american.

The subtlety obtained by Wedge, Carlos-Clarke and others using the combinations of toners, dye-couplers and colour retouching dyes really need to be seen first hand, you would find it difficult to realise the print is made from a B&W negative and printed on colour paper.

Ian

Yes Ian,
I agree with you, some photo-oil work is awful, but when they're not overdone (photo-oils are transparent as you probably know) they're quite interesting and real looking. You missed my point - they have a lifespan greater than all others, "long lasting", as in "archival". They actually command a high price, I get requests for these quite frequently.

The method you describe does'nt sound easy and very permanent at that. How about fiber paper? If you want to see what a true artist can create, check out one done by Clint Eley in the book by Judy Martin & Annie Colbeck: Handtinting Photographs (UK), pages 102-103. This was a toned fiber print, AFIK, colored with retouching dyes - it took two weeks of work to produce this classic 'still life' masterpiece. It appears as though there are other strait-forward (less technical - more accessible) methods to accomplish a realistic look. I'm still amazed by this tinted photograph. Color paper would have made it seem cheap, IMO.

Regards,
Paul

Ian Grant · Feb 16, 2008

Paul, I did a lot of commercial research into hand-colouring in the late 70's up until the lmid 80's, that was mainly practical research, and I spent many hours hand colouring (tinting) images.

Yes possibly photo-oils are more archival, but the dyes used for retouching are probably far more archival than C41/RA4 prints.

Ian

panastasia · Feb 16, 2008

Ian, I respect your vast knowledge on the subject of this discussion. I'm sorry to say I'm on someone else's computer and have no means of scanning the photo to send to you. For the sake of describing it, it looks like a color photograph, only better - I would be fooled if not for text describing how it was accomplished. The colors are not intense - very "real" rendition.

I thought color retouching dyes were no more permanent than those found in ordinary color photos - they're the same, AFAIK - the adding, subtracting, and color mixing rules are the same as those used with color printing filters. Also, somewhat reversible using ammonia as a sort of bleach. The instruction sheet that came with the set of 14 color dyes that I have, tell me the same ("COLORPRINT", same company that produced "SPOTONE").

I've been restoring antique B&W photos for a number of years, so this subject of discussion is interesting for me to follow, for obvious reasons.

Paul

AgX · Feb 16, 2008

Dyes can have quite similar transmission qualities but still be of different origin, which has impact on their longterm stability.

Within colour photography different kind of dyes are used.

Amongst the ones originating in a coupling process you have got a vast range and these fall again in those oginating from couplers which are sunstantial and non-substantial. In the latter case no no bare couplers will remain in the film.

Then you have those dyes which are formed within the manufacture of the film as in masking-couplers, which change colour within filmdevelopment, or those which break down within development, as in the silver-dye bleach process.

And those which are just transferred by a matrix film as in an imbibition processes.

I guess the last two types of dyes should have similar longevity as those used for retouching.

(Actually, amongst those dyes synthesized outside the film one is less limited concerning absorbtion characteristics than amongst those formed by a coupling or similar action.)

converting B+w picture to color

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