Controling Sepia toning.... how?

tkamiya · Apr 13, 2011

I tried sepia toning for the first time today. Paper was Ilford MGIV FB and toner was Photographers' Formulary 221.

I heard Sepia toning reduces density so I chose a print that came out a tad too dark. Then followed the instructions.... bleach, wash, redevelop, wash, fix with hardener, HCA, wash again. The instruction says bleach for 1 min and redevelop for 1 min so that's what I did.

The result is.... the print is just as dark as the original and it's really brown/red. It's not the subtle kind of sepia.... it screams out SEPIA! It also looks like I lost contrast a bit. Overall, it's not pleasing at all.

As I understand, Selenium toning can be controlled by time and I got used to that... The instructions that came with the selenium toner gave me an impression that toning should complete in one minute and is done to completion.

How do I control this so I can have pleasing subtle sepia that doesn't scream out SEPIA!??

MattKing · Apr 13, 2011

Dilute the bleach, and then adjust the time in the bleach to determine how much toning you get. You can also adjust the time in the redevelop stage. If you split tone (selenium + sepia) the length of time in the selenium will determine the sepia effect as well.
The combinations are endless. I really like the control this gives me. Tim Rudman's Toning book is a wonderful resource.

RalphLambrecht · Apr 14, 2011

To get a subtle sepia effect, the best way in my opinion is to give up on indirect toning and use direct brown toning instead. Easy to do, more control and no surprises! I use it with MGIV-FB all the time. I'm not familiar with your toner, but it should work with that product by just skipping the bleaching step.

Mark Fisher · Apr 14, 2011

If you bleach just until you can see the lightest tones start to fade (may be only a few seconds in full strength bleach), then pull it and wash and redevelop in the toner, the result will be much more subtle. I have a few recent ones in my gallery. dlin (Daniel Lin) has a good consistent procedure down because his toning is subtle and consistent...check out his gallery too. It sounds like Matt might have some images in his gallery too, but I haven't checked

pentaxuser · Apr 14, 2011

Get a variable indirect toner kit. Different dilutions of the part 2 toner gives you a range of tones from pale yellow/brown to the kind of colour you describe here as not being to your liking.

Those instructions you have quoted sound a bit too simplistic. Too "black and white" or is that reddish/brown and white?

Tim Rudman's book is worth buying as well. Very comprehensive on a whole range of toners and toning.

pentaxuser

jovo · Apr 14, 2011

Toning has so many variables that you should expect to have to experiment with it quite a bit before you're able to get exactly the results you want. Tim Rudman's book is invaluable, and has recently been reprinted so it's available. Using it as a guide, and having been toning for a year or so now, I'm still learning what to expect ( I mix my own bleach, and toner from chems bought from the Formulary ) and how to be more consistent.

Ian C · Apr 14, 2011

With respect to the original question,

Bleach-redevelopment sepia toning is meant to be taken to completion. If you want partial toning you should use one of the direct toners: brown toner, polysulfide toner, selenium toner.

Kodak Brown Toner is no longer made, but the same formula is available from Freestyle in LA as Legacy brand. It works with Ilford MGIV FB but isn't nearly as warm. Like all direct toners, you simply remove the print when it gets the color you want. In this way you can obtain any degree of toning from almost imperceptible to strong color or anything in between.

Papers lose density to varying degrees depending upon the paper. Some papers loose considerable density while others lose far less. There is also a loss of contrast. This too varies among different papers. You can compensate by making the print greater in density and contrast based on your experience with the particular paper.

The color youre after might be better realized on a warmtone paper like Ilford Warmtone FB. You might like the results even better when this paper is developed in a slow-working developer like Ilford Warmtone Developer. The copmbination of Ilford Warmtone paper + Ilford Warntone Developer + any direct sulfide toner is quite beautiful and the toning can range from barely perceptible to strong color as you desire. Its easily controlled by varying the toning time.

tkamiya · Apr 14, 2011

I made 5 identical prints so it's time to experiment then....

What's everybody's favorite brown/sepia toner? I picked Photographers' Forumulary because it was the only one available from the vendor I bought it from. I'm really not wanting to mix my own, so I'm looking for pre-packaged toners.

Ian C · Apr 14, 2011

Freestyle sell Legacy brand Brown Toner Agfa Viradon (another brown toner), and a Sepia Toner Kit. Each of these is similar to the now discontinued Kodak products and the prices are similar and not expensive.

Freestyle also sells Moerch Polytoner in 3 varieties. The Moersch Sienna Polytoner contains selenium like the original Kodak Polytoner and produces similar tones.

The Brown Toner and Sienna Polytoner are easy to use. You simply dilute with water per instructions.

Thomas Bertilsson · Apr 14, 2011

You can do whatever you want. I use partial bleach-back and toning in sulfide or thiourea to get varying degrees of effect. If you bleach back with dilute bleach, you will only tone a portion of the tone range - the highlights. The longer you tone and the more concentrated your bleach is, the farther down into the tonal range you will go.
I usually do this first and follow up with selenium toning, which works more from the 'bottom up', while the sepia works from the 'top down'. I this way can get a varying degree of warmth in highlights and/or shadows. The first sepia toning affects how the selenium toning affects the print as well, so some experimentation is definitely called for.

And, finally, when toning, there are no rules. Look at guys like Tim Rudman, Wolfgang Moersch, Bob Carnie, Guillaume Zuili, Bill Schwab - and how they tone their prints. Mr Carnie, for example, sometimes uses up to three or four different toners on the same print. Throw rules out the window, have fun, experiment, and make sure to wash your prints really well between steps.

Have fun!

- Thomas

tkamiya · Apr 14, 2011

I have quite a bit more pleasing images now....

One of the major problems with my previous try was that I intentionally printed the original print a bit darker expecting the reduction effect on Sepia toners. Because I have so much shadow area, that made the print way too red. In original print, too much black wasn't offensive but too much red was.

This time, I used prints that are at the right density. I have one set I bleached 100% and redeveloped to completion. It's red but much more pleasing red, not screaming red now. I have another set where I bleached to about 50%, redeveloped to completion, and followed it up with Selenium toner for 4 minutes. Selenium part made the shadow area slightly darker without adding more red. I like the results as well.

I still don't have a "hint of sepia" type print. I'm going to have to pull the print much sooner next time.

RalphLambrecht · Apr 14, 2011

tkamiya said:
... I still don't have a "hint of sepia" type print. I'm going to have to pull the print much sooner next time.

Please listen to Ian (and me) and try direct toning. It will give you exactly what you want, 'a hint of sepia', and it's a lot easier to control.

jovo · Apr 14, 2011

RalphLambrecht said:
Please listen to Ian (and me) and try direct toning. It will give you exactly what you want, 'a hint of sepia', and it's a lot easier to control.

Ralph, do you know the formulation of this direct toner so that one can make it up without buying a kit? Knowing the prescription would also help in experimenting with whatever tweaks might present themselves.

BTW, to all who might go this route, according to Tim Rudman, sulphide toners need to be used quite apart from photosensitive materials like film and printing paper, so get them out of the DR for the toning process, or do that work apart from the vulnerable material.

RalphLambrecht · Apr 14, 2011

jovo said:
Ralph, do you know the formulation of this direct toner so that one can make it up without buying a kit? Knowing the prescription would also help in experimenting with whatever tweaks might present themselves. ...

If you cannot get a hold of Kodak Brown Toner or Agfa Viradon, use the attached formula.

jovo said:
... BTW, to all who might go this route, according to Tim Rudman, sulphide toners need to be used quite apart from photosensitive materials like film and printing paper, so get them out of the DR for the toning process, or do that work apart from the vulnerable material.

Good point! For this and other reasons, it's not recommended to store film or paper in the darkroom.

tkamiya · Apr 14, 2011

RalphLambrecht said:
Please listen to Ian (and me) and try direct toning. It will give you exactly what you want, 'a hint of sepia', and it's a lot easier to control.

I intend to. I just don't have one handy at the moment.

... and I do all of my stinky toning outside. I know about the fogging issue.

jovo · Apr 14, 2011

RalphLambrecht said:
If you cannot get a hold of Kodak Brown Toner or Agfa Viradon, use the attached formula.

Thank you very much, Ralph. I'll try this.

brian steinberger · Apr 14, 2011

The best a cheapest sepia toner can get is to make your own! All you need is potassium ferricyanide, potassium bromide, thiocarbamide and sodium hydroxide. All color combinations can be obtained from these 4 chems. Easy to mix and easy to control.

Working solutions:

Bleach:
Pot Ferri 10g
Pot Bromide 5g
Water to make 1 liter

Toner:
Thiocarbamide 10g
Sodium Hydroxide 3g-10g (yellow to brownish red)
Water to make 1 liter

Ralph and Ian's recommendation for a Brown toner is an excellent one. I prefer Agfa Viradon and use it with Ilford MGWT with wonderful beautiful "sepia" tones.

brian steinberger · Apr 14, 2011

I just realized you said you prefer to not mix your own. Although I highly recommend mixing your own, PF sepia kits should be just as good as any other sepia toning kits. I would certainly still consider trying Viradon though! Excellent!!

tkamiya · Apr 14, 2011

I'm going to order one from Freestyle. It appears to have a clone of Kodak brown toner under Legacy Pro brand...

bill schwab · Apr 14, 2011

Lots of good advice here. I like to dilute the bleach way down and repeatedly bleach, tone and wash until I get my look. Like Thomas said...most important is to play and find your own feel.

Thomas Bertilsson · Apr 15, 2011

RalphLambrecht said:
Please listen to Ian (and me) and try direct toning. It will give you exactly what you want, 'a hint of sepia', and it's a lot easier to control.

With all due respect, Ralph, I disagree.

There is absolutely nothing difficult about using bleach and re-development, and it's a lot more versatile than the direct toners, in my humble opinion.
With well diluted bleach I can get the very subtlest of sepia tones, barely noticeable unless you have an untoned print to compare it to. Or I can get very rich tones by bleaching back a lot with extremely warm tones as a result.
Or, I can repeat the process after bleaching and toning once for yet another result. It is, by far, in my opinion, more flexible than something like Kodak Brown, which basically repeats exactly the same color every time, and the way I use toners that would be pretty much useless.

I hope Mr Kamiya sees that there are many ways of doing this, and there is no one better way, just different ones. But I must state that it isn't at all difficult to use a bleach based indirect toning method. It is true that a direct toner is easier, but that doesn't make the bleaching method difficult.

Good luck, and have lots of fun! Toning prints, and exploring how they work, especially in combination with other toners, is like opening a new chapter and increasing the pool of possible outcomes. It makes printing a richer and more interesting place to be.

- Thomas

RalphLambrecht · Apr 15, 2011

tkamiya said:
I intend to. I just don't have one handy at the moment.

... and I do all of my stinky toning outside. I know about the fogging issue.

I'm not a 100% sure, but I think you can use what you have try direct toning.

RalphLambrecht · Apr 15, 2011

Thomas Bertilsson said:
With all due respect, Ralph, I disagree.

There is absolutely nothing difficult about using bleach and re-development, and it's a lot more versatile than the direct toners, in my humble opinion. ...

Well, that is not my experience. I find the one-step method much easier than dealing with the bleach and redeveloper for the following reasons:

Residual silver halide, left behind by poor fixing, will cause staining with sulfide toners. Furthermore, residual thiosulfate, left behind by poor washing, can also cause staining and even highlight loss with sulfide toners. To avoid staining from residual silver halide or thiosulfate, it is, therefore, essential that FB prints are fully fixed and adequately washed in preparation for, or anticipation of, sulfide toning. For direct sulfide toning, a preceding 30-minute wash is sufficient. The bleaching process, required for indirect sulfide toning, calls for a complete 60-minute wash prior to bleaching. Otherwise, residual fixer will dissolve bleached highlights before the toner has a chance to ‘redevelop’ them. Likewise, a brief rinse after bleaching is highly recommended, because the interaction between bleach and toner may also cause staining. Washing minimizes the risk of unwanted chemical interactions between fixer, bleach, and toner. Indirect toning, after bleaching, must be carried out to completion to ensure full conversion of silver halides into image forming silver. Otherwise, some residual silver halide will be left behind, since the toner was not able to ‘redevelop’ the bleached image entirely. This is rare, because indirect toning is completed within a few minutes, but if residual silver halide is left behind by incomplete toning, the print will eventually show staining and degenerate, similarly to an incompletely fixed print.

I also find the results of direct sulfide toning much more visually pleasing, but that's, of course, a matter of taste. As you said, there is more than one way to skin a cat, and one has to find out what works best for oneself. One advantage of properly executed indirect sulfide toning is that it is the most archival toning process known to man, direct sulfide toning being a close second and selenium toning being a distant third.

nworth · Apr 16, 2011

Sepia toning takes some experimentation. First, the results are not always predictable. Second, each sepia toner acts differently on each kind of paper. Third, there are some controls you can use. The classic sulfide sepia toner, like Formulary 221, produces reddish brown tones, as you experienced. A thiocarbamine toner will be less red and probably a bit lighter. A polysulfide toner tends more toward chocolate, A hypo-alum toner will tend more toward the yellow. But the effect will be different on each paper and will vary a bit depending on how the original print was processed as well. There are many traditional sulfide sepia toners. They have various bleaches, and the tone varies depending on the bleach.

There are a couple of processing variations you can try as well. The first is to vary the time the print is in the bleach, as mentioned above. You do not have to bleach the print completely before toning. The result will be a darker brown print. Another trick is presulfiding. Treat the print in the sulfide redeveloper solution for a minute or two first, wash it, and then bleach it and redevlop it as usual. The result will generally be darker. Some experimentation will be needed to get it right, and you may have to change the way you make the print a bit before you are happy. In any case, don't give up, and have fun.

tkamiya · Apr 16, 2011

Does anyone know what was the predominant method used in 30s and 40s when sepia toning was very popular? Of course these prints are older so there might been bleaching by sunlight or just plain aging, but they seem to have much lighter color and less red than what I'm getting...

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