Contrast Masking by Lynn Radeka - The New Version - Seeking Feedback?

blindpig · Dec 22, 2015

M Carter,I understand the reason for triangulating register marks for aligning several sheets but submit that trying to use register pins this way on more than one edge might cause registration problems not relieve them. Placing the second edge pin after the first edge is down over it's pins would require a stretch in the mask material going over this pin,possibly moving the mask slightly out of register.At one time I tried this approach and found one pin on each of two edges of the mask sheet worked some of the time,wasn't as effective as having them aligned on just the one edge,the reason was without being extremely careful when punching a slight bulge would develop in the mask between the two pins when in use and not give repeatable results.
In my opinion registration happens on one pin and is kept in place by a second pin to prevent rotation.

RobC · Dec 22, 2015

blindpig said:
M Carter,I understand the reason for triangulating register marks for aligning several sheets but submit that trying to use register pins this way on more than one edge might cause registration problems not relieve them. Placing the second edge pin after the first edge is down over it's pins would require a stretch in the mask material going over this pin,possibly moving the mask slightly out of register.At one time I tried this approach and found one pin on each of two edges of the mask sheet worked some of the time,wasn't as effective as having them aligned on just the one edge,the reason was without being extremely careful when punching a slight bulge would develop in the mask between the two pins when in use and not give repeatable results.
In my opinion registration happens on one pin and is kept in place by a second pin to prevent rotation.

What you've said your experience has been is exactly what I was thinking. I don't even see why 3 pins on one edge would improve things. Two pins have only one straight line between them and providing the material being used is dimensionlly stable (not prone to stretching) the two pins on one edge should do the job.

DREW WILEY · Dec 22, 2015

Big sheets generally need multi-pin control. For example, I have a 5-pin system for dye transfer matrix film, including oblong pins. I started with a nice used Stoesser (now Olec-Stoesser) punch, then had Ternes Burton make me matching pin bars. But for all my ordinary film punches, it's just two micropins apiece. However, there are different configurations of these (diagonal punches, linear punches, etc). The most important thing to understand is that only polyester (Kodak "Estar" etc) film is dimensionally stable. Most black and white sheet films are on this kind of base, but not all color sheet film is. And 120 film is typically acetate, so a headache if you don't work quickly and expect things to remain in register the next time. 35mm film is rarely an issue because it so small that overall changes are minor. Masking is a lot of fun, regardless.

Bob Carnie · Dec 22, 2015

the center pin holds the film in place the two on outside are to allow a resting place,
putting a pin opposite like Don(Blindpig) mentions actually will cause more problems

Don really knows his stuff, he has done thousands of complicated registration in his day.

When I was doing this in the 80's I use three pins , circular - and two oblongs on the outside with some breathing room, the center post would position , the two outside would position
as well but also allow slight settling before the vacuum was turned on.

I worked in a rather large company that specialized in photo comp- just like Don who ran a business in Kansas City, we actually met in the late 80's at his shop.

At BGM Imaging the other comp technicians worked with a two prong with glass on top approach under enlarger, I personally found over time that the three pin with vacuum was superior.
All this was done on Interneg and dupe film- 8 x10 up to 16 x20(dupe film) with very , very precise tolerances as what we produced was generally magnified in the
mural department for Advertising.

I remember that in my Repro Department - Day shift we had 8 technicians all working on photo composition with registration concerns.

There is a reason there are three pins on registration systems for contact- Unless you have done it and produced precision registration it may not make sense. Two pins
definitely not as precise as three.

Right now I am doing three colours over platinum palladium with precision registration, I am using the exact system I used 30 years ago.. funny I never thought
I would do another register in my life.
This is a great example as how there is nothing new in photography.

Bob Carnie · Dec 22, 2015

two pins circular do not allow the separation film, masks find their landing point - Yes two pins will work but two static points can cause problems specifically across a large piece of film.

RobC said:
What you've said your experience has been is exactly what I was thinking. I don't even see why 3 pins on one edge would improve things. Two pins have only one straight line between them and providing the material being used is dimensionlly stable (not prone to stretching) the two pins on one edge should do the job.

DREW WILEY · Dec 22, 2015

The old published graphics guides can be fun. Somewhere I've got one which shows all kinds of expansion/contraction coefficients for all the
films and diffuser sheeting etc of that time, much of it still relevant to similar materials. Even designing a vac easel for large film requires
some know, or the vac will pull the sheet down warped or wrinkled. That mere second or two it transpires has to occur on a particular basis. Just look how those big Stoesser comp tables were designed in the first place. That will give a clue. There is a great deal photo darkroom workers have forgotten because it really applies more to older pre-press technique. But so much of that gear is now a bargain on the used market, that there should be a greater temptation than ever to try it. Just don't expect big film itself to be cheap anymore.

Bob Carnie · Dec 22, 2015

All my advice is based on Contact 8x10 up to 30 x40 registration using ortho pan and lith film and now pictorico and ortho silver film- I have never tried enlarging application registration which would have a whole set of different parameters .

Michael R 1974 said:
For enlarging applications I wouldn't use more than two pins for 4x5 or smaller. For contacting/8x10 or larger the story can change. Inglis's contact/pin-register system is excellent

Dead Link Removed

Bob Carnie · Dec 22, 2015

This is true, but I would say that there is a whole new crop of young workers wanting to give a go, I am teaching a workshop over the holidays where we have 8 people.
Age range 24- 75 - coming from Arizona, California, Calgary and Ontario

All wanting to learn multiple register with old process.

I am having a hard time finding the tools.. not as easy as you may suggest.

DREW WILEY said:
The old published graphics guides can be fun. Somewhere I've got one which shows all kinds of expansion/contraction coefficients for all the
films and diffuser sheeting etc of that time, much of it still relevant to similar materials. Even designing a vac easel for large film requires
some know, or the vac will pull the sheet down warped or wrinkled. That mere second or two it transpires has to occur on a particular basis. Just look how those big Stoesser comp tables were designed in the first place. That will give a clue. There is a great deal photo darkroom workers have forgotten because it really applies more to older pre-press technique. But so much of that gear is now a bargain on the used market, that there should be a greater temptation than ever to try it. Just don't expect big film itself to be cheap anymore.

DREW WILEY · Dec 22, 2015

Condit rights were bought out by Jens of Durst-Pro. So go figure, or gamble. He is an excellent machinist, but might be lacking on the ethics side of the business. If I were starting out over, I'd simply buy a mini milling system and matching CNC. But as it is, I manage just fine with basic shop gear, including an industrial drill press, though maybe I have a slightly different idea of basic shop supplies than most people. For most masking applications in an enlarger you can simply tape the final mask in register to your printing original (remember, even the tape itself should be polyester). You only need a registration carrier if you are making sequential exposures from serial separation negatives, like for dye transfer printing (though I might try something analogous right onto RA4 paper just for fun, something I've seen before as well).

DREW WILEY · Dec 22, 2015

He likes to take your money, but might not ever deliver, if he even has the stuff, which is seldom the case. I suspect he makes most of his
income on service contracts. In other words, if you happen to buy a $75,000 enlarger from him, and are wiling to sign a service contract on it which pays for his flight and labor time on a regular basis, he might be a good fit for you. Otherwise .... But I'm kinda snickering at the moment, since I just got some nice equipment for free from an ex-lab originally purchased from him, worth a lot more than the $2500 he
stiffed me on. It's a shame. Honest businesses do a lot better in the long run. But he does know what he's talking about technically when it
comes to Durst.

DREW WILEY · Dec 22, 2015

His information is quite good. I differ a bit on his opinion about glass types, but that only occurred because the original glass is no longer made, so he substituted something else, which apparently is not available either, even though he still lists it. He sometimes works on a hail
Mary pass, taking orders and then hoping he can scrap up the used components to refurbish and resell. If he can, you get something lovely;
if he can't, you're stiffed. Apparently there are enough people worldwide and enough Durst leftovers still around to keep the market going.
But he's not a young feller and probably can't keep going much longer. What most annoys me is that I took all the trouble of driving there
are dealing with him in person, then he still took the sly tack. All I got out of it was a nice diagonal punch but nothing matching; so I end up
making all that myself, yet another chore.

DREW WILEY · Dec 22, 2015

But what do I advocate? Good communication. I used to get my chem from Bryant Lab right down the street. Their main clientele was hospitals and tech industries. They told you the precautions right up front, right over the counter. Now I mainly deal with Formulary in Montana. They at least take the trouble to make sure they're not selling to someone who is going to smoke some chemical. Even ordinary
sodium sulfite needs explanation. Yeah, people eat the stuff. It's in fast food salads and many US wine bottles as a preservative. But there are quite a few people deathly allergic to it. So it should be prominently listed in the ingredient with appropriate warnings. Legislation takes a long time to outright ban anything that isn't first FDA regulated. Certain industries can fight back for a long long time. But you can bet certain chromium salts are going to be restricted just like in the EU. Just too much potential for abuse.

Contrast Masking by Lynn Radeka - The New Version - Seeking Feedback?

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