Contax, Pentax, Mamiya, Bronica 645 SLR - why NOT?

slnce-z-gsi said:

I am still looking for the weight of Bronica ETRSi, Mamiya 645 Pro (Pro TL) and mybe Bronica SQAi. The main problem for putting together the weights is to find out the weights of:
- waist level finder
- AE prism
- motor winder / grip
as the producer usually say the weight of the lightest package: body, 120 mag, WLF and a lens.

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Post #26 of this thread:

Body + AEIII prism + 120 back (no film) + Speed Grip = 3 lb 3 oz.
40mm lens = 1 lb 2 0z.

You can get an angle finder for the Pentax 645, I know.

slnce-z-gsi said:

Do I understand correctly that the Mamiya 645 Pro TL does not offer exposure data imprinting on the film?

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No, it does not. That feature is a bit of a rarity in the camera world, but Contax was really into it. The 645 Pro is a great camera, though, and it's a bargain for what you get. Most other medium format systems will run you at least a couple of times more for an equivalent kit.

- Sirius -
thanks. I am of course aware of the Hasselblad V cameras, but that camera just would not be what I am looking for - a easy to hand hold, possibly eye level, AE camera with right hand grip.

- lxdude -
great to hear that there is angle finder available for the Pentax 645! I would definitely need it - I like shooting low sometime (easy with Rolleiflex T) and would like to have that option with 645 SLR too.

Actually - I am now quite set on the Pentax 645N. I have just missed one with 45-85 lens. Should I really manage to get one I will probably do some "psychological consultations" to get the Contax 645 out of my mind

Matus,

Have you decided on the 645N or NII? I must confess the Pentax does look like an attractive option, although when using my RF645 camera I occasionally would prefer the camera to give a 6x7 negative.

www.ffordes.com lists a Pentax 645N with 45-85mm lens at the moment.

Tom

- Tom -
I would take the NII over N, but the differences are small and the price difference is rather large. Yes - I know that there is a N with 45-85 offered by the ffordes (who seem to be trustable seller - at least what people say around here) however I find the £800 a bit too much although I may be wrong - I have seen rather little 45-85 being sold yet so I do not have a good estimate on the price.

Yes - the 6x7 negative would be nice (one of the reasons why Mamiya 7 complicates my decision a bit) but the size and weight of the 6x7 SLR gear is just too much and large mirrors make the hand holding problematic. In fact - one of the features that attracts me to Pentax is the well damped mirror. But also the second tripod mount is cool - I have a lightweight carbon tripod (Feisol CT-3442 and Photo Clamm PC33 ball head) which actually holds my 4x5 gear, but still it will improve the stability when the camera does not have to be flipped on side for vertical shots.

Matus,

Considering the sound of the Bronica SQ-B 6x6 mirror slap, I'd imagine a 6x7 SLR would produce even more vibration. The Pentax 645N mirror is supposed to be well-dampened from recollection.

Tom

slnce-z-gsi said:

Actually - I am now quite set on the Pentax 645N. I have just missed one with 45-85 lens. Should I really manage to get one I will probably do some "psychological consultations" to get the Contax 645 out of my mind

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It thought you'd end up with the 645N. It seemed to be the way you were heading.
Some "wallet consultations" were all I needed to get the Contax out of my mind.

KEH has a 45-85 in transit to them. I don't know if shipping from the US works for you; just wanted to let you know.

Tom Kershaw said:

Matus,

Considering the sound of the Bronica SQ-B 6x6 mirror slap, I'd imagine a 6x7 SLR would produce even more vibration. The Pentax 645N mirror is supposed to be well-dampened from recollection.

Tom

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Here we go again with the great mirror slap urban myth. <<sigh>>
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkKcbyh2CrA

Steve

Weight of Pentax lenses

Hi guys, sorry if someone else has posted this, I had a (very) quick flick through the post and couldn't see this info, so I thought I'd add it... if anyone was still interested, that is!

I have the original Pentax 645 with four lenses, so I thought I'd quickly pop them on my kitchen scales an give you weight conscious fellows some exact numbers to go on. Please remember though, these are all the manual focus versions of these lenses, not exactly sure how the auto cousins would compare. All measurements were taken with both front and rear caps on, but all filters removed:

35mm - 506g
55mm - 433g
75mm (non LS) - 268g
150mm - 460g

Also, just for interests sake, the body, with body cap on, an unloaded 120 back in, and the original thin Pentax strap attached weighed in at 1550g (1.55Kg).

Hope this might be of some help to someone.

Just on a purely subjective note, I just flew back yesterday from a family wedding up in Noosa where I have been wielding this kit for the past week and I have to say, this is one superp piece of equipment, even without the 'easier to handle' dials of the N and NII models, nor the selective metering modes. Every time I spend some quality time with this kit, I fall in love with it all over again, this 55mm would have to be one of my all time favourite lenses, if ever I were forced to only have one lens for this camera, that would be it.

Thank you Steve. I have most of the weights by now, but it is still nice to have a confirmation.

I have heard only good things about the A 55/2.8 - strange that Pentax omitted it from the FA update (I do not count the very new version here). While I plan to get the FA 45-85/4.5 I will most probably get the 55 too as it is my favorite focal length and can be had for little (I tend to consider lenses for under €200 as cheap )

I keep my eye on the KEH and FFORDES. Is there any trustable seller of used gear out there to check?

slnce-z-gsi said:

(I tend to consider lenses for under €200 as cheap )

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Yep, you're perception of "affordable" and "Value for money" can change quickly in this game

slnce-z-gsi said:

I keep my eye on the KEH and FFORDES. Is there any trustable seller of used gear out there to check?

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Personally, I look to KEH as a price guide, then hunt around, but the 55mm I just ended up getting from them as the auction prices were considerably higher (this is going back a few years). The few lenses I've found locally (in shopfronts) have been priced outrageously!

So - the tough decision was taken and I have a nice 645N + FA 45-85/4.5 on its way from ffordes to me (!!).

It should arrive in a day or two and then I take it to business trip to Paris where I hope to find some time for a few evening shots. I will definitely let you know then!

To keep you updated:

the camera arrived - what a beast! My Rolleiflex feels so small in comparison. The weight of the 645N + FA 45-85/4.5 + 6xAA is about 2.3 kg.

The camera is NOT light (hey, I was shooting R3A with Jupiter3 over the weekend), but has a very good ergonomics and I got accustomed to it rather fast.

The viewfinder was acceptably bright (the lens is only f/4.5!).

The AF is better than expected. Manual focus was no problem either even though the camera does not have a split screen (just a normal matt screen).

However - the camera turned to have one hidden issue the seller was not aware of and goes back for a replacement.

The 45-85 lens while offering a practical range is bigger than I like. While packing the camera I have spotted an FA 35/3.5 on webpage of ffordes and immediately decided to swap the zoom for it and add later the A 55/2.8 (or the 75/2.8). Still - I did shoot 2 films with the zoom and will share my impressions.

So - keep tuned - the show goes on

The 35 & 55 are two of my favourites, would love to hear (see) how you go with them. What was the issue you mentioned?

When I tried to make first test shots in vertical orientation - I mounted and arca-style quick release plate - and the tripod mounting came off the camera (I was lucky - in nearly fell off my tripod). As this feature (mounting point for vertical orientation) was one of the reason I decided to go with the Pentax 645N the camera went back. Also the battery insert had a slight rattle in the handle of the camera. Also the lens seemed to have quite some rattle (to be honest I do not know how much rattle is OK with this lens).

But the camera worked fine. Actually - I expected large viewfinder (my wife has Minolta Dynax 7 which has great viewfinder - the Pentax is comparable) as people say how great it is. Still - it was easy to focus the slow zoom manually. The AF seemd precise two more AF sensors would be great though.

So if I will negotiate with the ffordes (the contact is actually very good - I feel confident that we will work this out) and have the 645N plus FA 35/3.5 in my hands I will get the 55/2.8 (and probably also the 75/2.8 for half body portraits - the 150/2.8 can be too long at times)

I will let you know how it works.

Actually - did shoot one Delta 100 and one Provia 100 with the 45-85/4.5 to get the idea about the performance. I will post samples once I have it scanned and developed.

I am in Paris right now and feel pity that I could not take the camera with me ...

The tripod mount came OFF?!! I'm imagining the thread being pulled out, but surely that can't be the case?! Wow... really interesting to hear.

Yes - it really did. The way it is attached to the steel shell ( a steel sheet underneath the plastic shell, according to what one can see when the mount is removed) - like a clench is probably not the most safe one ...

slnce-z-gsi said:

To keep you updated:

the camera arrived - what a beast! My Rolleiflex feels so small in comparison. The weight of the 645N + FA 45-85/4.5 + 6xAA is about 2.3 kg.

The camera is NOT light (hey, I was shooting R3A with Jupiter3 over the weekend), but has a very good ergonomics and I got accustomed to it rather fast.

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My experience exactly, too big for its size, heck if bulk isn't a problem, why stop there get the RZ. Get the Mamiya 6 or 7, Mamiya or Contax 645 systems are too bulky for what they offer.

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Just to let you know - nothing is decided - the camera went back and will be refunded. So I can reconsider it again. And it is not easy at all.

Contax 645, Pentax 645N , Mamiya 6 , Mamiya 7 -lenses, Bronica RF645 and not to forget the fixed lens MF RF. Advantages and disadvantages are more-less obvious, but it does not make it any easier ...

I need to think it over again.

I guess that it is my duty to disclose the rest of the story. I after long additional considerations I came across an interesting deal - Mamiya 6 with 50 & 150 lenses. What got me to pull the trigger was that the camera had the entire film transport gear exchanged less than 2 years ago.

I sold R3A and Rolleiflex T to get this camera. I do miss the Rollei, but the Mamiya really does for me what I needed - a MF travel system with great optics, built in AE. It covers about 95% of what ideal camera could do and that is pretty good.

I got the camera by end of July and by now have also the 75 lens, quick release plate from RRS. As I wanted (and I did) to drag the camera with me to vacation in Spain I got a customized bag from Courierware.

Long story short - the camera is really nice to use and delivers great results. Of course I am in the process of scanning about 30 rolls of film and will be putting up some images on he web soon.

thanks to everybody who shared here advice and opinions.

slnce-z-gsi said:

I do miss the Rollei, but the Mamiya really does for me what I needed

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...and in the end, that's what matters, congratulations!

I like 'em a lot for shooting hand held. They are convenient, and give an improvement in print sharpness over 35mm. In well-lit situations, they are a way to act as if you were shooting small format while getting sharper results. Due to lens speed and minimum hand holdable shutter speeds, I feel that 35mm is superior below a certain level of light. Shooting 220 in my Mamiya M645 feels a lot like shooting 35, especially with the right hand motor grip. They allow the use of fast films with smaller grain than you'd get with 35mm. I most use them when I want to use fast film for whatever reason, but also want less grain than with 35mm. versus square format, I like not having a square and getting more shots on the roll sometimes. The killer tool is the Hassy with a 645 back, as it allows so much versatility, but I don't want to pay for it, or the lifetime of buying expensive stuff for it when the results I get from the Mamiya exceed my criteria already. For a camera of the Hassy style, I use my RZ. I would have a hard time not having the RZ and M645 in exchange for having a Hassy, but maybe I would do it, if it was a nice enough Hassy kit that I got in the end, and for a good enough price......It'd have to be damned cheap, though.

Late to the discussion but after 20+ years I have no regrets of choosing the Bronica ETRS system. It can be configured to meet almost anyone's style. Can be light and simple to fully provisioned and most anything in between. Pop on the waist level finder and pull off everything else and it is a lightweight (well, relatively) carry around or add the speed grip and metered prism and you have a camera that is around the weight of a totl 35mm though larger. Add a motor drive and you need not spend money at a gym. The later models though are lighter and better for walking around. Want a camera for vacation but not wanting to blow the budget on 120, pop off the 120 back and pop on the 35N back. Want to do landscape, pop on the 35W back.

Lens are sharp and though there are 3 versions, the original MC, the PE and PEII, the big differenences are only a bit more contrast and the 1/2 stop clicks on the later lens. Look at the inventory of lenses available across the 3 generations and you are well covered incuding several zooms and a shift lens. Extension tubes, a bellows, extenders and something like 5 different finders and the list goes on.

When the line was in production you could feel like akid in a candy store and having a American Express Gold Card was about the only way to satisfy the hunger. Today, the going prices for really good pieces is I think one of the biggest bargains out there. I can put together a basic system for not much more than a Yashica FX3.

As for durability, at least for me I've had no problems what so ever. Any camera can have shutter issues with time but as each lens has its own leaf shutter even if one freezes up all is not lost. The battery is current production, a PX28 so no issue with mercury conversions. The earlier bodies have more metal to being all metal but even the last ETRSi body with the most plastic is a brick in build. A number of companies are supporting repairs and I suspect repairs will not be a problem for many years to come.

If I had a gripe about the system, it is that the company tried to make it all things to all persons and offered such a variety of options and accessories that it could be scary. I have envisioned the committee for development and design sitting in the room and no one agreeing on what it should be so to get the project moving they simply made modules so each committee person was satisfied.

Towards the end of Bronica's life, the system did fail to keep up and was somewhat conservative in improvements. On the other hand, the series was truly universal across the board. Nothing was obsoleted by a newer model. This loss of competitiveness is not as important today as when the series was in production.

In the final analysis I've learned that how a camera feels in the hand and the emotion it creates in the owner is as important and probably more so than the technology under the hood. If these criteria are not met then the desire to photograph does not rise to a passion. As the Bronica can be configured in so many ways, take some time and try different layouts to see if any create that passion.

- 2F/2F -
I pretty much agree on the 35 mm having the edge for low light. Actually the reason why I will be getting soon a fixed lens RF (Canonet QL17 or KOnica S3 or similar)

- BrianL -
You are correct about your timing, but we still do appreciate your opinion on the Bronica. Should I ever feel the need to add a MF SLR camera it would be on the list.

SteveR said:

...and in the end, that's what matters, congratulations!

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So here I have for you guys a few shots to prove the point:

I will be adding more (also in color) to my flick in the near future (after I get my scanner calibration right)